Atheist Arguments: God Is A Delusion

Years ago I watched a PBS Masterpiece Contemporary movie called God on Trial. In essence it was the story of a group of Jewish Auschwitz prisoners who decided to put God on trial because He broke His covenant with Israel by not protecting and blessing the nation as He said He would.

If it weren’t for the death-camp setting, the story would have seemed rather silly to me. Here were several rabbis, one who supposedly had memorized the Torah, discussing God, and yet they didn’t get the fact that Israel broke the covenant and God fulfilled the clear warnings He gave.

At one point, one of the men brought up that possibility, but the discussion turned to why “good Jews” were suffering for the sins of the “bad ones,” defined as those who no longer had faith in the Torah. As it turned out, they found God guilty, yet as the German guards hauled off the group designated for the gas chamber, the man who instigated the trial said something like, Now that God is guilty, what are we supposed to do? And the answer was, Pray and believe in the Torah. They then began quoting a passage from it, and continued to do so as they marched to their deaths.

Some time after seeing the PBS movie, I started reading a book called The Dawkins Delusion? by Alister and Joanna Cullicut McGrath (InterVarsity Press). Apparently atheist Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion, which the McGrath book is clearly answering, is most critical of what I’ll call the Faith Factor.

God is a delusion—a “psychotic delinquent” invented by mad, deluded people. That’s the take-home message of The God Delusion. Although Dawkins does not offer a rigorous definition of a delusion, he clearly means a belief that is not grounded in evidence—or, worse, that flies in the face of the evidence.

Dawkins would seem to be describing a “faith” such the Jews of Auschwitz had, as depicted in God On Trial.

The McGraths make an essential point:

Dawkins is right [about this point]—beliefs are critical. We base our lives on them; they shape our decisions about the most fundamental things. I can still remember the turbulence that I found myself experiencing on making the intellectually painful (yet rewarding) transition from atheism to Christianity. Every part of my mental furniture had to be rearranged. Dawkins is correct—unquestionably correct—when he demands that we should not base our lives on delusions. We all need to examine our beliefs—especially if we are naive enough to think that we don’t have any in the first place. But who, I wonder, is really deluded about God?

Well, I already know the answer, because I read the Book—the one written by the All-Knowing Creator God. Anyone who puts God on trial and finds Him guilty, or absent, or dead is deluded. I could have said, anyone who puts God on trial is deluded. The idea that we can judge God shows our delusion.

How much worse, when those who judge God and find Him wanting, then turn around and profess faith in Him or in His Word. It is the biggest delusion of all. This “belief despite the evidence” position is not unique to the Jews of the movie. I’ve had some contact with individuals who identify as progressive Christians or agnostic Christians, and I can’t help but wonder why they cling to this delusion. They say straight out, they don’t believe in the Bible. One person said he thought Jesus was a sinner. Others say we simply can’t know, but they believe anyway.

Sadly, these positions give weight to the atheist arguments about Christianity and faith. But they are not representative of Christianity.

From the beginning, our beliefs were grounded by the early Church fathers in the revealed word of God. Of course many of those same people had the advantage of having walked and talked with Jesus and of seeing Him alive after His resurrection. They experienced the confirming “signs and wonders” and the “various miracles” and “gifts of the Holy Spirit” the writer to the Hebrews mentioned in his letter.

No, the thought that Christianity was built on a delusion was a false idea countered by the New Testament writers from the start, and the idea that God Himself was a delusion was never something they considered (or didn’t find credible enough to address). I come back to my earlier statement, reworded: only those who think they are worthy to judge God are delusional.

Much of this article is a revised version of one that appeared here in November, 2008.

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Published in: on January 7, 2019 at 5:19 pm  Comments (22)  
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  1. Cool post, Becky.

    I actually call myself “insanitybytes” for that very reason, what is sanity, what is delusion? We still have a hard time scientifically defining “consciousness,” let alone sanity.

    The sum total of all Christians who have ever lived now amounts to about 7 billion. So to suggest that 7 billion people all through history, living on different continents, were all suffering from the same kind of mass hysteria and mutual, shared delusion just isn’t rational.

    Also not rational is the suggestion that you as an atheist, possessing the same brain and chemistry as everyone else, somehow managed to avoid the “delusion plague?” You and you alone, with a tiny handful of others, somehow managed to escape the gene pool of delusion?

    Liked by 1 person

  2. The thing with atheists is not necessarily that they believe there is not “God” (I refer to him by His name YHWH), but that they mostly don’t like the “God” they’ve been presented with. Things they use in their arguments are fluff. The things that they can’t answer are:
    1. People, including possibly themselves, believe in atoms. They’ve never seen an atom so how do they know they exist?
    2. What constitutes evidence of proof to you?
    and the best one:
    3. What is it about YHWH that there should be no evil and suffering? That means He can allow no suffering or death? Where does it say that YHWH can’t exist at the same time as evil/suffering?

    Atheists are always in the hypothetical, not reality.

    Liked by 2 people

    • “but that they mostly don’t like the “God” they’ve been presented with.”

      Atheist means a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. We have no need to like or dislike them outside of the mythical world.

      “1. People, including possibly themselves, believe in atoms. They’ve never seen an atom so how do they know they exist?”

      An English Chemist and Mathematician Dalton developed an atomic theory in 1803. He was the first person to scientifically prove that matter consists of indivisible discrete particles. Modern science this is, not based on superstition and mythical stories and has been verified by millions of scientists. Are they all lying or is there a conspiracy against God, what do you think?

      “2. What constitutes evidence of proof to you?”

      Considering just about every event in the Bible cannot be verified by non-Christian scholars of the times or through any scientific and historic finds and with so many fraudulent attempts made over the centuries to justify the existence of Jesus this is just a circus of fraud and lies.

      After thousands of years of no evidence it is a guaranteed fact that there is none, however if God could send Jesus to Earth once he can send him a second time so he can raise people from the dead, walk on water, part the sea and heal the blind etc.

      “3. What is it about YHWH that there should be no evil and suffering? That means He can allow no suffering or death? Where does it say that YHWH can’t exist at the same time as evil/suffering?”

      I struggle to understand these questions, however the real facts are no gods, YHWH included (call them what you will) cannot prevent or administer anything at all, including evil, suffering or death anytime or anywhere. Only man can administer these things and are often delivered in the name of a god if they are stupid enough.

      “Atheists are always in the hypothetical, not reality.”

      Adam made from dust and Eve from a rib, a talking snake, the flat Earth hatched by God in a week and it sits on pillars suspended from heaven. And this stuff is reality, huh?

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      • Like I always say: It takes a lo of faith to be an atheist. You would sooner accept that nobody created everything out of nothing. Just one look at one cell–be it human, plant, whatever–and it’s easy to see design. Somebody or something had to be intelligent. If you choose to ignore evidence–based on what you have been told via a crippled Christianity or whatever reason–then I feel sorry for you. Who stole your sense of wonder at the natural world–how it all interlocks gracefully? What pill do you take that numbs you to the fact that the earth itself wouldn’t support life if it were but meters closer or further from the sun? Just because you haven’t found “God” to your liking?

        Here’s the thing: The Scriptures are living. When someone with a seeking heart comes to them, someone with “eyes to see and ears to hear” they open themselves to the person. When someone who doesn’t even have a criteria for “proof” tries to look in it, all there are is ink scribbles on a page. It will withhold itself from you. And that’s not sci-fi–it’s supernatural. I invite you over to my blog to see how Christianity and Judaism have screwed things up, but also how to obtain the truth of the Scriptures. Shalom!

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        • “You would sooner accept that nobody created everything out of nothing.”

          No, I do not accept that, but are you seriously saying the universe that contains billions upon billions of planets with just 40 billion Earth sized planets that are located within the Milky Way galaxy could not have had something to do with depositing the elements required through a meteorite or similar to start life on our Earth with a single cell about 4 billion years ago?

          You reject this as possible, yet you would actually think it feasible that man was created from dirt and woman from the man’s rib by a God who supposedly hung up the stars in the sky?

          “Who stole your sense of wonder at the natural world–how it all interlocks gracefully?”

          The facts are that Human ecosystems are complex cybernetic systems, nature is far smarter than any god creator or human. Nature evolves, it never stays the same and without evolution life would be extremely short-lived and without reproduction, an organism will just live out its lifespan and die. Biological evolution is a crucial process for our lives, however as God did not implement that feature I am more in tune to the wonder of the world than you will ever be.

          “What pill do you take that numbs you to the fact that the earth itself wouldn’t support life if it were but meters closer or further from the sun? Just because you haven’t found “God” to your liking?”

          Maybe some planets in amongst the billions in the universe did get to close to the sun and burned up. It has been discovered by astronomers from the universities of Toulouse France, and Montreal of two burned-out relics of giant Jupiter-like worlds that were vaporised when their sun reached the end its life and grew into a red giant, just as Earth is predicted to be vaporised in about 5 billion years when our sun eventually dies. I assume similar things like that are happening to hundreds or maybe thousands of planets all the time, so anything could happen, life is very fragile even our planet is slowly being damaged by man. And very true, I do not find your alleged God as likeable.

          “When someone who doesn’t even have a criteria for “proof” tries to look in it, all there are is ink scribbles on a page. It will withhold itself from you. And that’s not sci-fi–it’s supernatural.”

          Please just find the evidence, find me the same God that exists between your ears and please do not present the Bible as evidence it has been proven to be historically unreliable and inaccurate by historians.

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          • ” it has been proven to be historically unreliable and inaccurate by historians.” Steve, repeating this false idea over and over does not make it so. You wouldn’t know this because you won’t read the very Bible you discount. And that’s why I think your beliefs are so sad. You don’t want the knowledge available to you top make an informed decision. You only want to read those who reinforce your beliefs. Confirmation bias, they call it.

            Becky

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          • This is not a false idea Becky, if you took the time to verify your beliefs instead of being a puppet to the church you would find there are many if not thousands of inconsistencies, contradictions and mistakes found within the pages of the Bible. Just type into Google “biggest historical contradictions in the bible” With all the sites available I doubt it could be a conspiracy against Christians and anything other than factual.

            “You wouldn’t know this because you won’t read the very Bible you discount.”

            If you are not aware or do not care to see these many problems within your holly book, it must mean you have not read the bible, not read it very well or just ignore much of it.

            Here is a few wrong historical and scientific examples I came across and a couple of sites you can check on.

            River Gihon could not possibly flow from Mesopotamia and encompass Ethiopia (Gen 2:13)

            Kings are referred to at Deut 17:17-19, before Israel had kings.

            Ur was not a Chaldean city until 1000 years after Abraham (Gen 11:28, 15:7)

            Earth is flat (these verses were used for centuries by the church to prove this: Ps 93:1, Jer 10:13, Dan 4:10-11, Zech 9:10, Matt 4:8, Rev 1:7)

            Earth does not move (Ps 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 1 Chr 16:30).

            The ancient egyptians were already keeping records for hundreds of years before the flood and did not seem to notice that their entire civilization was wiped out, or that a flood occurred at all.

            The moon has a light of its own (Isa 13:10, Matt 24:29).

            God himself believes that a house or clothes can have leprosy and he details the remedy. Lev 13, 14.

            https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/The-Problem-of-the-Bible-Inaccuracies-contradictions-fallacies-scientific-issues-and-more-20120517

            https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/50-000-Errors-and-Biblical-contradictions-190303

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          • Steve, just stop. You don’t know what you’re talking about and are simply parroting those who have already decided against the Bible because they don’t believe in the supernatural. When you read the Bible yourself, then you’ll have some ground to actually speak about it. And no, cherry picking verses to “prove” your false ideas is not going to work. I bet you never said in your life that the sun rose in the east. But of course that’s somehow OK but if the person who says it is a Christian, it’s evidence of his “ignorance.” This is sad, Steve.

            Becky

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          • Are you blind to everything and just how do you deny what is right in front of your face Becky?

            You do not want to confront the evidence presented because it does not agree with what you are taught to believe.

            Fair enough, I just hope that someday you will do yourself a favour and try to find enough strength to poke your head out of the cocoon of traditional church preached indoctrination and take in a breath of reality.

            Take care.

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          • Steve, you say that I’m blind, but you’re the one who won’t read the Bible. You’re the one closing your eyes and looking away. As I have told you time and time again, I accept scientific facts but not the conclusions of atheists who simply will not—in the same way that you will not—consider the truth of the supernatural. I’m not in a cocoon, apart from the one that will turn into a glorified and resurrected body the way a worm turns into a butterfly. I know what you say and believe and I simply disagree with your conclusions because you start with a false premise. That’s what apparently you refuse to examine. And that’s why I am sad for you, my friend.

            Becky

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          • @becky
            @steve

            Being aware, (and familiar) of the endless interchanges, surely Steve must admit there is a God, ( one God mind you) because becky’s patience has been nothing short of supernatural.

            You may want to consider that Steve, yet it is God who is far more patient with such willful rebellion.

            Just sayin….

            Liked by 1 person

          • “And that’s why I am sad for you, my friend.”

            I thank you for your concern Becky, but no need, because I feel you have been a victim of religious autocracy.

            Think about this for a second, do you honestly think I would spend my time pointing out such recognisable fallacies and common myths to believers if I was not presenting views of the world’s officially accepted peer reviewed standards regarding indisputable evidence and facts by the largest group and the highest qualified scientific minds on our planet regarding everything, including our existence?

            I would not bother if I did not understand exactly how sophisticated the process of persuasion and control by ideological organisations to alter the human mind can be, especially when it is applied to the young and that is something I am totally against.

            You will no doubt understand how humans react very differently to events in their lives and this is emphasised in no small way by the way we process emotionally inspired information such as philosophical ancient writings and supernatural issues that are presented with a life and death prominence attached to some serious commitments and consequences depending on the decisions you make.

            People who are inclined to want to participate in further teachings of an ideology on a regular basis and over a period of time usually will finally accept the issues at the face value as it is presented to them. This acceptance often comes accompanied with various personal needs and insecurities, the afterlife fear factor and often former forgotten experiences, feelings and positive thoughts about a belief generated from the subconscious mind.

            Most of us at some point naturally become victims of conclusions and assumptions based on the information we choose to believe, and we naturally tend to try and disregard what we do not want to believe until of course the evidence cannot be ignored, and we have to capitulate to these facts.

            Ideologic Indoctrination, however, is a step further into the abyss of the mind and has been utilised by man since his quest for power and the will to rule over others. Ideological Indoctrination has nothing based on facts it is a world view or more expressively a passive radicalisation.

            The new generations of today’s high technical world, modern science and declining religions ensure that most free thinking young people in developed countries will not seek theocracy or a personal creator or need to substantiate the claims made by religions as their parents have done in the past because recognised scientific facts have established both rationality and produced evidence to eliminate most of the myth that supports all ideological beliefs.

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          • Steve, I am truly sorry you have such a narrow vision. It grieves my heart. You know nothing about true Christianity, evidenced by your statements about fear and such. The Christian life is about joy and peace and love in the Spirit. We are not perfect, but we are forgiven and live in the freedom, not any guilt, which that condition brings.

            Your idea that soooooo many “true scientists” all believe these claims (which, I’ll point out again, may be based on fact but are distorted by their false conclusions) is immaterial, as you yourself should realize since once the theistic view was widely prevalent. From your own position you’d have to say, the majority opinion does not make it true. If that was true in times past, it is still true today. We don’t get to vote on what is true.

            Steve, again, I suggest that you inform yourself, if you really care about this subject at all. Read the scholars who have done the hard work and you will see there is much more than what you think. Here are some books to consider (since you won’t actually read the Bible itself, still the best source of information about Christianity): Evidence for God: 50 Arguments for Faith from the Bible, History, Philosophy, and Science edited by Michael Licona and William A. Dembski; The Problem of God: Answering a Skeptic’s Challenges to Christianity by Mark Ckark; Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics by William Lane Craig; The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism by Timothy Keller; The End of Reason: A Response to the New Atheists by Ravi Zacharias; Science and the Mind of the Maker: What the Conversation Between Faith and Science Reveals About God by Melissa Cain Travis; Signposts to God: How Modern Physics and Astronomy Point the Way to Belief by Peter Bussey; The Reality of God: The Layman’s Guide to Scientific Evidence for the Creator by Steven R. Hemler; Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels by J. Warner Wallace; Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Life-Changing Truth for a Skeptical World by Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell; and less evidence than deconstructing atheist popular views, The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions by David Berlinski.

            Becky

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          • “You know nothing about true Christianity, evidenced by your statements about fear and such.”

            This is untrue Becky, I know about the joy and peace and love in the Spirit. As I have mentioned in an earlier blog, I had a father and a stepmother who were devout Christians who would remind me what God was about on a regular basis. What they never explained was why they believed these parts and ignored the rest, because I would understand people loving this God if he had not harmed a single hair on anybody’s head, however this is far from the truth.

            I have always had the natural desire to look at the other side of every story professed to be factual. Unfortunately, the love and joy etc. is only half of the whole Biblical story, just as the Quran. The appalling morals are rarely mentioned, but even more appalling when apologetics try to gloss it over and come out with ridiculous justifications.

            It is about any of the religious stories that do not sit well with me as they are taught to children. As you know I disbelieve in all gods and I am quite clear in my aim in preventing indoctrination of the vulnerable within our society.

            “Your idea that soooooo many “true scientists” all believe these claims (which, I’ll point out again, may be based on fact but are distorted by their false conclusions) is immaterial, as you yourself should realize since once the theistic view was widely prevalent.”

            If something is based on evidence and facts in science it will have been tested beyond any doubts, then peer reviewed and accepted by the wider scientific communities, so I do not see how you can judge that they have distorted anything with false conclusions, please elaborate if you have a good example Becky?

            “the majority opinion does not make it true.”

            I agree with this because a majority belief in something will hold true until something with more credibility usually supported by evidence comes along, such as the original scientific belief that water conducted electricity that was proven wrong as it was the impurities in water such as ionic minerals and chemicals that conducted the electricity. Same with the belief that blood was blue inside your veins and turned red on exposure to air.

            Thank you for your book suggestions but I can find many examples regarding arguments for and against God, the Philosophy and the scientific evidences for and against God etc on line. For example, just about every verse in every version of the Bible can be accessed on line, so the printed Bible may eventually become obsolete.

            Like

          • No, Steve. This is what I mean. Love and joy and peace are for all who come to God through Jesus Christ. But those who reject God or His Son, as you profess to do, know only fear and wrath and judgment. You see the dangerous side of God, because you reserve for yourself the right to judge God. You put yourself above Him, saying essentially that you know better than He.

            In addition, by denying His right to judge righteously and sovereignly, you are saying people don’t have to acknowledge God as, well, God. They can all do as they please—rape, murder, abuse, steal, lie, or any other “for themselves” action—and never have to face God’s judgment. Because, HORRORS, if God judges, He is mean and cruel.

            That’s actually not the way the world works. There ARE consequences for our actions.

            Again, no time to read and respond to everything, Steve. Just want to remark on one more thing—I’m not surprised that you won’t read any of the books. Sure there is plenty of material online, but I suspect you won’t read any of that either. Though you pride yourself in looking at both sides of issues, clearly when it comes to Christianity, you don’t. I wish you were sincere and truly investigated Christianity instead of simply preaching against it.

            Becky

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          • “for all who come to God through Jesus Christ. But those who reject God or His Son, as you profess to do, know only fear and wrath and judgment.”

            As I have written Becky, we are all different and react differently to what we are told is true. I could never believe what you do, even if I wanted to because none of it made any sense to me when I was a child and it still does not. Of course, there are those like yourself that absorb early supernatural beliefs and ancient scriptures very easily and individuals can become obsessively indoctrinated and passively fanatical.

            My mother believed in the spirit world, my father and step mother were both at a soft fanatical Christian status, however my brother had no position on religion and I am what you can call a passive fanatical disbeliever and a strong atheist.

            “You see the dangerous side of God, because you reserve for yourself the right to judge God. You put yourself above Him, saying essentially that you know better than He.”

            I know I exist, and I disbelieve that any gods exist in the supernatural, therefore I expect I do know more than both you and your God.

            “They can all do as they please—rape, murder, abuse, steal, lie, or any other “for themselves” action—and never have to face God’s judgment. Because, HORRORS, if God judges, He is mean and cruel.”

            I find you have not grasped anything I have explained about atheists. Not one atheist will think or react as you have described, you should realise that non existent things cannot be mean and cruel to real people and the consequences for our actions are not going to be dispensed in a supernatural world after we die, that is the basic raw reality of life for all of us Becky.

            “I wish you were sincere and truly investigated Christianity instead of simply preaching against it.”

            I have, or else I would not know what I am arguing about, I would bet after many years of daily blogging about it that I would understand more about your religion than many who profess to be good Christians, just as you possibly would know more about Christianity than some apologetics.

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          • ” I could never believe what you do, even if I wanted to because none of it made any sense to me when I was a child” Steve, I’m sorry that you have let your child’s mind guide you instead of growing up in your thinking.

            “our actions are not going to be dispensed in a supernatural world after we die, that is the basic raw reality of life for all of us Becky.” I find this astounding, Steve. You DEMAND evidence for God, but you positively know what will happen after you die, based on . . . NO EVIDENCE.

            Steve, until you read the Bible or at least ONE book by a Christian who gives evidence for God’s existence, you are simply deluding yourself by thinking that you are competent to comment on Christianity.

            Clearly you have made up your mind based on your own thoughts and for your own purposes. What you believe does make me sad, Steve, because what God offers through Christ is life, and that in “abundance.”

            Becky

            Liked by 1 person

          • “you have let your child’s mind guide you instead of growing up in your thinking.”

            I was just old enough to know that Santa Claus and the Easter bunnies were not real, and God was also in the same category. Of course, I do not have any obvious mental deficiencies, however I do understand very well what evidence actually is.

            “You DEMAND evidence for God, but you positively know what will happen after you die, based on . . . NO EVIDENCE.”

            Forget life after death Becky, because fortunately I can find plenty of evidence that the Bible claims have been subject to early Christian traditions of using deceptions and lies to promote what is regarded as the truth.

            Bert Ehrman a Biblical professor who was a former Christian has identified 11 of the NT books as forgeries and only 7 of the epistles were written by Paul and claims also that the resurrection passages were later added to Mark and were changed by Matthew and Luke.

            Can I also mention the world’s oldest bible which is handwritten in Greek the Codex Sinaiticus includes Old and New Testament books, and other writings that weren’t considered as Bible passages at the time of its compilation. This book was obviously a result of much earlier Biblical copies, however in this copy alone, there are 14,800 Differences Between Codex Sinaiticus and the King James Version and some familiar and very important passages are missing that include verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus.

            This is only scratching the surface, there are many such queries and questions, so I ask Just how much evidence does anyone need Becky, to understand that the Biblical accounts are nothing more than words written by primitive superstitious and ambitious men?

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          • Steve, you believe one guy who also believes what you believe, but refuse to read any of the thousands who answer his false ideas. There are many, many, many scholars who have written about the way the Bible has been copied, collected, transcribed, translated. They deal with the “differences,” things like spelling a word differently (such as the British spellings verses the American spellings). I’ve written about this before. You would know this too if you read anything but the stuff that confirms your bias. Really makes me sad, Steve. I think you are bright enough to figure this out but you refuse to give credence to someone who has a different opinion from yours. Well, no, you refuse to open your mind to what they say. No, it’s worse than that. You refuse to listen to them speak.

            Becky

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          • I am well aware of the “scholars who have written about the way the Bible has been copied, collected, transcribed, translated.”

            I do understand that there are spelling errors and minor differences etc. I do just want to emphasise the high number of errors and differences because it makes it very clear that the Bible is no where near the exactly so called inspired written words of God.

            Matthew 6:13: The Lord’s Prayer traditionally ends: “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” This seems to have been absent from the original writings, what a huge amount of words to be attached to the Lord’s prayer. A forgery.

            Mark 16:9-20: The original version of Mark ended rather abruptly at the end of Verse 8. Verses 9 to 20, which are shown in most translations of the Bible, were added later by an unknown forger. The verses were based on portions of Luke, John and other sources. A forgery.

            John 21: There is general agreement among liberal and mainline Biblical scholars that the original version of the Gospel of John ended at the end of John 20. John 21 appears to either be an afterthought of the author(s) of John, or a later addition by an unknown forger. Most scholars believe that it was added by a forger.

            1 Corinthians 14:34-35: This is a curious passage. It appears to prohibit all talking by women during services. But it contradicts verse 11:5, in which St. Paul states that women can actively pray and prophesy during services. It is obvious to some theologians that verses 14:33b to 36 are a later addition, added by an unknown counterfeiter with little talent at forgery.

            This is but a sample, and if you like to read more I will send you the web address, however you will just think it is all made up to destroy God, Am I Right?

            It may be wise to consider that things were a little different in the 1st and 2nd century CE. Many philosophers, scholars and religious leaders followed what was accepted practice and not unethical of those times to write material in the style of their leader and pass it off as if their leader had written it.

            “Well, no, you refuse to open your mind to what they say. No, it’s worse than that. You refuse to listen to them speak.”

            This is untrue I have read and listened to many apologetics on You Tube along with the flat Earthers, the climate change, moon landing and science deniers etc. for many years. I need to know how other people think and why they believe, and I have discussed their beliefs and the associated issues with them as I have with you Becky.

            Opening my mind is where I am always. Your mind is closed to atheism and any other gods apart from a single one, whereas being at the default state of atheism I happen to have all the Gods that ever existed on equal terms of disbelief, therefore it appears I have a more open less judgemental or biased mind than you do.

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          • No, Steve, I think you do not understand the Bible so you think you’ve found some “gotcha” verses, but you don’t. You simply do not understand because you have not read either the Bible itself or the books you say you’re aware of.

            How about this—an article in Psychology Today, which you should be willing to read since you’ve posted links from there before: http://tinyurl.com/y6vlmc6v

            Steve, the fact that you throw in the flat earth beliefs with that of the truth about the Bible shows how far afield you are. If you read the above article, you should reach a point where you realize that your own reasoning may be suspect. Your “open mind” is really a figment of your imagination. Otherwise you wouldn’t be so resistant to reading the Bible, to hearing the answers to the accusations atheists level at Christianity. I find it interesting that so much attention goes to Christians from atheists. I’d think they’d be as concerned about other gods they don’t believe in, but it seems the arguments always go toward God and the Bible. Interesting.

            Becky

            Liked by 1 person

          • Very good Becky, I read it with interest and find he has obviously not taken on board any ideals from neuroscience, however, these paragraphs do have some facts.

            “In one sense, beliefs are not under our control.”

            “One’s parents, culture, and society may apply various pressures to have particular religious beliefs (or not), but in my view authentic belief is not produced in this way. Authentic belief is influenced by many things, such as environmental factors, but what is most important is our view of the available evidence for or against a belief. In this way, we have indirect control over our beliefs (what philosophers call “indirect doxastic voluntarism”–we like fancy names for things).”

            He says. “Authentic belief” what is this, do we also have non-authentic belief?

            But then he comes out with this that blows his cover completely.

            “Truth, however, poses a problem for the naturalist. The notion of true belief is more at home in a theistic world rather than a naturalistic/atheistic one.”

            Of course, he reveals his true colours and I find out he is a Christian and wrote books “Being Good: Christian Virtues for Everyday Life” and a book of morality quoting much of CS Lewis.

            “Of course, the beliefs of our prehistoric hominid are false, but they are conducive to behavior that has survival value.”

            What are false? They are all tested and proven to work going back to the cave man and we obviously did survive as a species; therefore, the beliefs of past gods and deities did work for humans in those days because they knew no better. Those gods were truth and survival for them to comprehend the way of nature in disaster or beauty, just as the Christian God is believed to bring the truth and the fear of death to many people today.

            “So, while the debate about faith and reason continues, there is a solid argument that reason is not at home in a naturalistic world. Reason, rather, finds its home most naturally in a theistic worldview.”

            Only a Christian would commit to this thinking. Atheism or humanism is the default status from birth, most are realists, they only believe in what can be identified as real and natural and do not believe in something that is not, such as gods, deities, angels, demons, Satan, pixies or fairies that live in what is termed the supernatural world. They do believe in morality and in human nature to be what it is due to the evolutionary process, genetic factors, life experiences and the fact we will all die as all life does. They reject any supernatural afterlife or reincarnation because human lives are based on what is indisputable evidence and facts on this Earth not on ancient beliefs, hope and faith based in supernatural worlds.

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