Why do atheists continue to demand physical evidence for spiritual phenomena? I’m mystified by this total lack of understanding of the spiritual realm. God is a Spirit, and no one has seen Him, but atheists persist in asking for demonstrable confirmation, as if we humans can conjure up something physical for that which is not physical.
This makes no sense.
Expecting physical evidence of the spiritual is unreasonable.
The two realms—the physical and the spiritual—operate on separate planes, and any mathematician can tell you that parallel planes do not intersect. That’s DO NOT INTERSECT.
The fact that God, exercising His omnipotence, has on occasion stepped into the physical realm or allowed His spiritual messengers to do so, demonstrates the existence of the spiritual, as well as His sovereignty over both realms. But clearly there can be no study using the scientific method of that which is anomalous. After all, the supernatural is not natural.
What don’t atheists understand about this?
Because of the unreasonable demands for physical evidence of that which is not physical, these same individuals conclude that anything beyond the physical must not actually exist. But of course “the physical” is defined by what the human senses can detect.
Obviously, atoms must not have existed for thousands of years, and only came into existence when humans gained the ability to see them through the use of microscopes. For that matter, other universes didn’t exist either, until humans developed telescopes powerful enough to see them. My point is, just because the human senses can’t always detect the existence of a thing—even physical things—this lack on our part is not evidence that things beyond our awareness do not exist.
To limit the world to what humans can see and know is narrow thinking.
For instance, dogs and dolphins and whales can hear sounds that are beyond the range which the human ear can detect. Are those sounds just myth or pretend or fabrications? Well, no. Because sound is detected by a physical property, humans have developed technology that allows us to study sounds we can’t actually hear. But if we only accept what we can detect by our physical senses, we ought not believe in sounds, or colors for that matter, that are beyond us.
How odd that what we once could not see or hear and did not know existed, is now readily accepted. But spiritual things that people have known for centuries do exist have come under attack and under the unreasonable demands of unbelieving people who want to limit knowledge to their approved list.
Because, it seems, these naturalists who limit themselves to what can be detected by the human senses, hedge themselves with the idea that what we know now can change at any moment. And that’s OK. So today we can rule out the multiverse, but tomorrow we might “discover” evidence for the very thing we deny today.
If that’s so, then how can any living, thinking person rule out the existence of God?
Might not He once again sovereignly enter the physical plane in a “demonstrable” way so that all those atheists who have limited themselves to the physical can see the existence of the spiritual world?
It’s going to happen.
Christ will one day return in such a way that every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that He is Lord. His return will be something sudden, dramatic, universal. Meaning that nobody will miss it or doubt it or mistake what’s happening.
What’s sad to me is that atheists won’t know sooner. I mean, in truth, God sovereignly enters this world moment by moment through His Holy Spirit. Every believer has the presence of the Holy Spirit in his life. That’s a spiritual happening, an ongoing Presence, an unexplained supernatural Being who resides in the heart of every follower of Christ.
Those of us who have experienced His guidance or comfort or peace or conviction or joy know it’s something beyond our capacity to manufacture. It’s supernatural, not natural.
One day the veil that blinds the eyes of those who don’t believe, will be lifted. Then, just like the stars we could not see without powerful telescopes and the particles of atoms we could not see without powerful microscopes, the spiritual world that exists beyond the physical will become clear to us all.
– – – – –
About this image: In 2015 NASA and ESA celebrated “the Hubble Space Telescope’s silver anniversary of 25 years in space by unveiling some of nature’s own fireworks — a giant cluster of about 3,000 stars called Westerlund 2. The cluster resides inside a vibrant stellar breeding ground known as Gum 29, located 20,000 light-years away in the constellation Carina. . . . The largest stars are unleashing a torrent of ultraviolet light and hurricane-force winds that etch away the enveloping hydrogen gas cloud. This creates a fantasy celestial landscape of pillars, ridges, and valleys.” Available at WikiMedia Commons and is a public domain photo.
![PowerElementsCharacterDevelopment[1000][1]](https://rebeccaluellamiller.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/powerelementscharacterdevelopment10001.jpg?w=205)
A Christian Worldview of Fiction 
“Expecting physical evidence of the spiritual is unreasonable.”
Yes Becky, spiritual awareness through meditation that is a form of mind control is a fact and most of us can indulge in this exercise and we understand how and why this happens.
Spiritual awareness through a god or deity is basically the same but completely different because it is a man-made faith supported by man-made religious ideologies that are designed to alter the thought process. The facts remain that both are generated and contained within the human brain.
“The fact that God, exercising His omnipotence, has on occasion stepped into the physical realm or allowed His spiritual messengers to do so, demonstrates the existence of the spiritual, as well as His sovereignty over both realms.”
Where and when did this happen Becky? I would not claim miracles as any evidence because they can be attributed to the natural world order, to anything and anybody at any time.
“How odd that what we once could not see or hear and did not know existed, is now readily accepted.”
It is accepted because it is identified by some means and we have some quantifiable evidence to base a claim, but so far is unable to be applied to any gods.
“Christ will one day return in such a way that every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that He is Lord.”
This may be a scary scenario for you and your fellow Christians, but I am simply happy with my life, I am a very lucky man, I have miracles, I have my health, I have a job, a lovely daughter and a future to live without a so called inherited sin.
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Steve, you said, “Spiritual awareness through a god or deity is basically the same but completely different because it is a man-made faith supported by man-made religious ideologies that are designed to alter the thought process.” Where is your evidence? This is simply your opinion, your imagination at work to answer what you don’t understand.
Of course the spiritual is not “mind-control” or meditation. That’s physical, something generated by our brains. The spiritual has to do with our spirit interacting with the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with someone talking us into thinking or feeling a certain way. Spiritual experiences are real.
Steve, God’s most dramatic entrance into the world was when Jesus came in the flesh. But going back to the beginning, God entered the world at various times: He “walked” with Adam and Eve in the garden, which means they actually apprehended His presence in some way. God relayed messages to Abraham more than once, and later to his son Isaac and then to his grandson Jacob. He gave supernatural understanding of dreams to Joseph and much later to Daniel. And I should have mentioned before Abraham, He conversed at some length with Job. Then there are the prophets. On particular occurrence was when He sent an angelic host to rescue a particular king. At one point the prophet prayed that his assistant would have his eyes opened so that he would realize, “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” At that point the assistant did see the heavenly army, the spiritual army, if you will, that God had allowed to enter this realm. I could go on.
But you’re not right to say that the miracles of Scripture can be attributed to some natural means. Jesus walking on water? Dead people resuscitated? Jesus’s own resurrection? Again, I could go on, but while some of the miracles can be explained away, they can’t be explained reasonable. Sure you might come up with some physical thing that would have been possible, but not reasonable. In truth, the most reasonable explanation is just what the Bible declares to be the fact: God entered into this world to declare Himself. It’s so odd that this is what atheists so often say they want, but when God actually does it, then it’s dismissed out of hand.
Steve, when Christ will return is not in any way something scary for Christians. We will see Him face to face, and He’s the One who loves us so much He was willing to die for us. We’ve already been forgiven for our sinful nature and for the sins we’ve committed. So there is nothing to fear. Only rejoicing and celebration.
But I wonder, Steve, since you don’t believe in “inherited sin,” how do you explain the “bad things” or the “mistakes” or the “errors in judgment or in action” that you commit?
Becky
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“Of course the spiritual is not “mind-control” or meditation. That’s physical, something generated by our brains. The spiritual has to do with our spirit interacting with the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with someone talking us into thinking or feeling a certain way. Spiritual experiences are real.”
It really is all in the mind. It is not really control of the mind when it comes to dedicated religious faith like you have Becky, because your brain has taken you much further than just simple thought. Neuroscientists have identified and now basically understand some of our brain functions.
Religious experiences have a similar effect on the brain as taking drugs, according to a new study. When studying the brain scans, the researchers noted certain brain regions consistently lit up when the participants reported spiritual thoughts. These are the same parts of the brain which have lit up when participants in previous studies have listened to music, experienced feelings of love and taken recreational drugs.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/religious-effect-brain-drugs-mormon-utah-reward-centre-nucleus-accumbens-a7446301.html
This is a great reason to reject atheism.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/what-happens-to-brains-during-spiritual-experiences/361882/
This one is more technical and more in depth.
“But I wonder, Steve, since you don’t believe in “inherited sin,” how do you explain the “bad things” or the “mistakes” or the “errors in judgment or in action” that you commit?”
The errors I make Becky do not harm people and do not disadvantage anybody but maybe only myself. I think maybe mistakes are made because I am human who only has himself to blame for anything and everything I decide and do. Quite simple really.
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Steve, because you deny the spiritual world, you are also denying the part of you that is spiritual. You are a perfect example of a naturalist. You can’t see the spiritual even when it is inside you because you alibi and find some alternative solution to a condition that is beyond your comprehension. You cannot explain, for example, where a sense of morality comes from.
I don’t care what your neuroscientists have “discovered.” First, you are wrong that they even claim to understand such a thing.
I’ve read your articles before (have you forgotten?). I’ve shown you that they themselves are not making any positive truth claims. I’ve told you that you don’t know, the scientists don’t know, that nobody alive knows, or can know, if the brain lights up when thinking spiritual thoughts as a cause or as a result.
But second you are wrong because I’m talking about something that IS NOT PHYSICAL. You are trying to find a physical cause for something that isn’t physical. That is nonsense.
As far as your “mistakes,” then, you admit you have no explanation. They just happen because you’re human. So humans make mistakes. Because . . . ?
You have no answer.
Christianity has an answer and a solution.
Becky
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Spirituality comes from a state of the mind. For example Becky, do you really believe those people who roll around the floor and wave at the ceiling are “speaking in tongues” are communicating in languages unknown to them and is identified as the supernatural utterance of foreign human languages and that others contend that it includes speaking an angelic language?
They have only a mind induced religious ecstasy, trance or delirious state they have bought upon themselves. Speaking in tongues came from an ancient Greek religion and logically it is just another state of mind invented to be something special by man.
“You cannot explain, for example, where a sense of morality comes from.”
I am sure I have explained to you how we evolved with certain aspects of human nature that involves basic morality, nurturing young etc. It is quite possible that you choose to not read it or understand it. If you want to know more about it I will send you some web addresses to study.
“I don’t care what your neuroscientists have “discovered.”
I know that. Because it would show you things you would not like.
“the scientists don’t know, that nobody alive knows, or can know, if the brain lights up when thinking spiritual thoughts as a cause or as a result.”
You believe God controls the brain, and that must be the answer because anything science discovers is invalid. Ok argument over, you have just used your god of the gaps argument and mere intelligent scientists and atheists have absolutely no idea. Right?
“I’m talking about something that IS NOT PHYSICAL. You are trying to find a physical cause for something that isn’t physical. That is nonsense.”
He spiritual world exists only in your brain; the brain is a physical organ that can make you see or hear a spiritual phenomenon like it is reality. The brain may still be quite mysterious to science; however, it is quite certain there is no god inside the brain unless the owner or some evangelist decides to deposit one in there.
“As far as your “mistakes,” then, you admit you have no explanation. They just happen because you’re human. So humans make mistakes. Because . . . ?”
“You have no answer. Christianity has an answer and a solution.”
Why do I need an explanation for making mistakes Becky? Animals make mistakes, I am sure insects make mistakes, do they also need an answer? Humans make mistakes naturally because there is always more than one solution choice or decision that can be made to resolve thousands of problems and challenges we face over a life time.
Do you never make a mistake, or do you claim you don’t make mistakes because God is guiding you?
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“Spirituality comes from a state of the mind.” Steve, that’s ironic. It’s called “spirituality” because it comes from the spirit, not the physical, not the mental, not any part of the “natural” world. You have conjured this idea up in YOUR own mind.
I believe that there are many supernatural forces, including ones that are evil. I don’t think that the people rolling around on the floor are doing anything by the power of God’s Spirit. That they are somehow controlled by a spirit, seems pretty obvious.
I lived in Guatemala for three years and once visited a place outside a town where people went to offer chicken sacrifices, to a stone. It was supposed to have fallen from the sky as I recall. Possibly a meteor. The point is, I could “feel” evil there. There was nothing of God in their worship or their pagan activity. But something was going on. Why is it so hard to understand that spiritual forces are at work. Think of it as “mind induced spiritual ecstasy” if you want to, but what causes it?
Steve, I really am sad that you do not listen to me. I have never said that “anything science discovers in invalid.” I specifically said, “your neuroscientists” because they are the ones you’ve hunted up to try and support your imagined ideas. They don’t. The can’t. You have completely sidestepped the obvious: no one knows if changes in the brain cause the experience or if the experience causes the changes in the brain.
So, I’m sorry, Steve, but you are completely wrong. I do not believe in a God of the gaps and I have never made such an argument. I don’t even know how you got there from what I said.
Steve, one more time slowly. The spiritual is not physical. Until you understand that, there really is no hope that we will ever come to a point where we are clearly communicating. You only believe in the physical. I get that. But you believing in only what you can see makes no sense. You believe in all kinds of stuff you can’t see, gravity being the most obvious. You believe in it because you see the results. Well, the results of the spiritual world are everywhere, but you’ve already decided they must have a physical explanation, because the spiritual doesn’t exist. So you make wild assertions and claim scientist have evidence for things they don’t even assert they have.
Seriously, Steve? Since when have you seen an animal answering for the crime of eating another animal? Do we hold guppies guilty for eating their young?
My point is that only humans violate a moral law. And again you have sidestepped this issue, saying it’s somehow part of the evolutionary process. But of course, since no animal has evidenced anything like obedience to a moral law or the need or desire for worship, then the idea that somehow what we have developed (which ought to be, according to your evolutionary theory, an evidence of our improved adaptation to our environment) as worshiping beings, has no starting place, nothing from which we could adapt. To put it plainly, morality wasn’t and then it suddenly was in humans.
Do I break the moral law? Again, Steve, if you read what I write you should know that I do. I’ve said more than once that we all have sinned, that Christians are not good people—we’re sinners who have been saved by grace, forgiven, had our debt canceled, and who are learning throughout our lives what it means to walk in the light of God’s moral law. Not because we have to in order to “get in good” with Him. But because we want to.
Becky
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“It’s called “spirituality” because it comes from the spirit, not the physical, not the mental, not any part of the “natural” world. You have conjured this idea up in YOUR own mind.”
The mental part is the spirit Becky, it is called spirituality because it is not physical and because it is a device of our mentality or our brain functions to be exact.
People can will themselves or fall unwittingly into all types of mental and spiritual states such as through meditation, love, hate, sexual lust, greed, jealousy, adoration, pride etc. This includes strong beliefs and resolute faith in a person, a god, religions, a government or simply a club or organisation.
“I believe that there are many supernatural forces, including ones that are evil. I don’t think that the people rolling around on the floor are doing anything by the power of God’s Spirit. That they are somehow controlled by a spirit, seems pretty obvious.”
This is a pretty dammed good example of a selective ideal from you Becky over other Christian ideals and how the spirit of God is very differently perceived in people’s minds. The millions of people who roll around the floor are as God fearing as you are. With an impassioned desire their minds become their personal spiritual resolve and salvation claiming it to be Gods spirit, not any other, and especially not an evil spirit. Do you not see the spiritual world is perceived completely differently and bought on only by human minds, nurtured by human minds often into the indoctrination state and used by humans as a reason for blame, a reason to live and of course the whole reason to worship for the reason of our existence?
“My point is that only humans violate a moral law. And again you have sidestepped this issue, saying it’s somehow part of the evolutionary process. But of course, since no animal has evidenced anything like obedience to a moral law or the need or desire for worship,”
Humans may violate morals for many diverse reasons, so what, we are all not mentally stable or agree with the methodologies of others. I have made the point before that we do not need worship to live a good and prosperous life. It is a fact, millions have done without it, why do you not accept that?
Obviously you did not read the web addresses I sent you that covered animal behaviours by professional researchers, or if you did you totally disagree with these scientists as you naturally do or have misunderstood them.
“as worshiping beings has no starting place, nothing from which we could adapt. To put it plainly, morality wasn’t and then it suddenly was in humans.”
I never indicated that. Humans have without any doubt learnt the hard lessons of survival from the timeline of human evolution that spans approximately 7 million years. Around 200,000 years ago, Homo sapiens first appeared in East Africa and it is unclear to what extent these early modern humans had developed language, music, religion etc. They spread throughout Africa over the following approximately 50,000 years. (ref Wikipedia) It is very likely that early belief in gods would have contributed to the basic morals humans had evolved with having an impact on the social aspects in our modern lives. Having said that, Christianity is a late comer in religious terms and our morals can in no way be solely attributed to any modern God or Christianity.
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“The mental part is the spirit” only in your imagination, Steve. As I have repeatedly pointed out, you have no evidence for your assertions. You clearly do not understand the difference between emotional and spiritual and mental. They ARE NOT THE SAME.
Believing in evil spirits as well as the angelic and God Himself is not selective! That’s really odd. That’s like saying it’s selective to say some humans do evil things and some do good things.Those people who roll around on the floor are NOT God fearing. And how do you even dare to compare what I believe with the? That’s the height of pride, Steve. You know what kind of relationship I have with God and it’s the same as they have? Really off!! Just wrong! You need to stop saying such nonsense!
Since I know the difference, since I actually have a relationship with God, I find it rather silly that you who don’t believe in Him think you can lecture me on what I am experiencing. You simply do not know, nor can you.
Again you sidestep the issue, that only those with spirits worship. Humans worship. Humans have a spirit (or soul). Just because YOU don’t worship does not negate the fact that other people do—but dogs don’t.
You are so funny, Steve. You say that humans have learned survival, which in context seems to include the desire, need, ability to worship. And yet there you are, saying that there is no god. That we’ve simply made the whole thing up. So, I ask you, how would making up god help us survive?
You have the whole understanding of religion wrong because you don’t understand that people once knew God. Every person. All people. And only over time did various people groups drift away from Him or adopt worship of a false god. So “Christianity” was “a late comer” but the thing is, God started the whole process, and from the beginning promised to send a Savior.
You would know this if you read the Bible, Steve. And if you studied the many ways in which we can corroborate the truth of the Bible. But why would you? You’ve already made up your mind.
I’m sorry that in all your bluster about science you really have no interest in uncovering truth.
Becky
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“for some reason you keep reading what Christians are writing about God. I find that interesting.”
Of course, I do Becky, I am trying to save as many Christians as possible from a wasted lifetime of subservience to a mythical being and because I cannot believe people can believe in so much fantasy.
“Those people who roll around on the floor are NOT God fearing. And how do you even dare to compare what I believe with the? That’s the height of pride, Steve. You know what kind of relationship I have with God and it’s the same as they have? Really off!! Just wrong! You need to stop saying such nonsense!”
Sorry Becky but you are the prideful one proudly defending the indefinable. Pride (Google dictionary) – “1. A feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of one’s close associates, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired. 2. Consciousness of one’s own dignity.”
This applies by arrogantly defending your style of Christianity suggesting it is worthy of honour or respect over all these ones you claim are fake.
“Again you sidestep the issue, that only those with spirits worship. Humans worship. Humans have a spirit (or soul). Just because YOU don’t worship does not negate the fact that other people do—but dogs don’t.”
Sidestep what issue? Yes humans have very complex overactive brains compared to dogs, however fundamentally we are very similar. Animals, from mice to monkeys, have the same organs (heart, lungs, brain etc.) and organ systems (respiratory, cardiovascular, nervous systems etc.) which perform the same functions in pretty much the same way. The similarity means that nearly 90% of the veterinary medicines that are used to treat animals are the same as, or very similar to, those developed to treat human patients. Read more?
“And yet there you are, saying that there is no god. That we’ve simply made the whole thing up. So, I ask you, how would making up god help us survive?”
The earliest humans had no Knowledge of why the sun came up every day, why it rained and why the volcano erupted, and superstition drove them to invent gods. They had no access to modern science, unlike yourself, who does have access to science but rejects much of it and believes as primitive man did, that everything that happens to them is due to a super kind of creator god.
Of course, they invented many gods, but it appeared to help psychologically when they asked for help to get through life through prayers and the sacrifices of animals and humans, just as Christians do today with the only difference being the elimination of sacrifice.
“You have the whole understanding of religion wrong because you don’t understand that people once knew God. Every person. All people. And only over time did various people groups drift away from Him or adopt worship of a false god.”
OK, what pre-Christian era god did Yahweh manifest himself as? there are hundreds to choose from and what god would ask for sacrifices, especially child sacrifices?
“But that’s what is happening in our western culture right now: people are trying to erase any divisions, even between humans and animals. You know where that will lead, don’t you?”
No, I don’t. So tell me what evil will avail from animals?
“you continue to say that scientists have found the place in the human brain that causes spirituality when in fact the very scientists who conduct the tests don’t even say that.”
Scientists Find Religion Triggers Same Area of Brain as Sex, Drugs and Love. No wonder you ignore me Becky, is this the theist secret, sounds great? 🙂
“We’re just beginning to understand how the brain participates in experiences that believers interpret as spiritual, divine or transcendent,” said Jeff Anderson, M.D., Ph.D. from the University of Utah School of Medicine, senior author of the study and neuroradiologist. ”In the last few years, brain imaging technologies have matured in ways that are letting us approach questions that have been around for millennia.” Read more here.
https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/your-brain-on-god-scientists-find-that-religious-ecstasy-affects-same-part-of-brain-as-sex-drugs-and-love
“And what does America have to do with anything? Not “administered by wealthy Christian politicians”! That shows ignorance of Christianity and of America.”
Your current president was voted in by Christians, Trump is supposedly a Christian and he is a very wealthy man. As Trump mixes with wealthy people he gives them positions in government. This is not ignorance but a fact.
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Rebecca, you say that God is just spirit. Many believers in God believe in a physical resurrection. Why is that? If you did not believe in resurrection, would you still believe in God. I believe that believers in Gods are delusional and have been scammed into believing the unbelievable, that they do not really die.
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Grogalot, thanks for stopping by and voicing your opinion. To answer your question, we Christians believe in a bodily and physical resurrection because that’s what the Bible says over and over. In fact, in a number of places we’re told that Jesus was the “first fruit,” which is a Jewish way of saying, the first of many to follow. We might think of Him being a prototype, a working and successful and best prototype of what we can look forward to.
If I didn’t believe in resurrection, would I still believe in God? That’s an interesting question, but I don’t think I can answer it. I’m convinced that resurrection is something real, and in fact “more real” than this physical life because it is for eternity. This life is the prelude, the next is the ongoing story.
I’m interested in your statement that you believe we who trust God are delusional.
The reason Christians believe in everlasting life is multilayered. First, we believe in an all powerful God—so what could He not do? Raising people from the dead is no greater than speaking the universe into being, or coming to earth in the form of a man. Second, as I said earlier, Jesus paved the way. He came to life in His resurrected body. Then, of course, we have the promises of the Bible. So we know God is capable, we’ve see Him do it, and we trust Him when He says He’ll do it for us.
Hope that gives you a window into the way and the why we Christians think as we do.
Now I’m curious, why do you conclude that people who believe in God are delusional? Why do you think that God falls into the category of “unbelievable”?
Becky
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Becky, everything dies. There is birth, life and death. You will, we all will, die, but you believe, with no more reason than the stories in the Bible, you will be physically and mentally brought back to life (of sorts) and spend eternity in heaven. That is what I would call “Unbelievable”. Greedy, greedy, so I ask, “Isn’t one life enough for you?”
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Grogalot, I do know that this body will die. The Bible compares it to a seed falling into the earth, only to spring up as a vibrant plant. And since we have that picture all around us in nature, it makes what the Bible says, very reasonable.
What’s more, Jesus’s resurrection and new body (think the 2.0 version—new and improved) was witnessed for forty days by groups of people. I understand that people dismiss eyewitness accounts, but in this case, there was prophecy that predicted all kinds of things about the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled, so the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms prepared people for what was to happen, then it happened, and it was witnessed by any number of people.
BTW, these people were willing to lay down their lives for the message they were passing on to others. That’s not the behavior of someone who is knowingly and willfully lying. Again, the most reasonable explanation is that they actually did witness what they said they witnessed.
As far as being greedy is concerned, I don’t think it’s greedy to declare something that everyone has. All we humans are spiritual beings as well as physical beings. If you doubt that, ask, where does the sense of right and wrong come from? Do dogs have a sense of right and wrong? Do they feel guilty for chasing and scaring cats or birds or squirrels? No, they react to behavior stimuli. What about worship? Do animals worship? Obviously not all humans worship, but many (most?) worship God or a false god or gods because we know there’s something in us that needs to respond to the spiritual world.
So I don’t think it’s at all greedy to believe we are, in fact, going to continue living. One life is enough, but it’s just not a short one.
The life I look forward to is not a different life from what I’m now enjoying, It’s more like I’m moving. The Bible refers to this body as a tent and in another place as a clay pot. These are the outer covering of what is inside. What we look forward to is a more permanent casing, if you will. But I’ll still be me.
Becky
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Becky, it seems the only thing you have to go on is the Bible. Resurrection is magical thinking for those who cannot face the reality of death, I believe.
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The Bible is certainly the most complete and reliable and factual source for God’s revelation, but it’s not the only one. Look at the world around you. As I said, seeds go into the ground and spring up as plants. Other life forms morph. Why shouldn’t humans?
One more point. What evidence do you have that life does not continue on in a different form?
Becky
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“Do dogs have a sense of right and wrong? Do they feel guilty for chasing and scaring cats or birds or squirrels? No,”
Read this Becky or go to
https://www.livescience.com/16814-animals-wrong-clues-point.html
to read more and I think you should change your ideas rather than dismissing everything that you do not like.
Bekoff is a professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder, and co-founder (with primatologist Jane Goodall) of Ethologists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. His extensive field research has led him to believe that morality is an evolved trait, rather than a system created by humans, and that it evolved early in the history of mammals.
Much of Bekoff’s research has focused on wolves and coyotes — both of which live in tight-knit groups governed by strict rules. Bekoff has observed acts of altruism, tolerance, forgiveness, reciprocity and fairness among wolves and coyotes, and says many of these moral sentiments are evident in the way the animals play with one another.
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Steve, you read these articles with rose colored, or evolutionary colored, glasses. Look at what Berkoff said himself: ” but I would expect that moral sentiments would be fairly widespread among mammals.” In other words, he’s doing just what you’re doing—dismissing something really scientific like Pavlov’s experiments that show animals respond to stimuli, so that he can paint humans as just other animals. His conclusion says it all: not much research to back him up but since evolution exists, certainly we’ll find evidence for what we’re looking for.
That is not even good science!
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“Steve, you read these articles with rose colored, or evolutionary colored, glasses. Look at what Berkoff said himself: ” but I would expect that moral sentiments would be fairly widespread among mammals.” In other words, he’s doing just what you’re doing—dismissing something really scientific like Pavlov’s experiments that show animals respond to stimuli, so that he can paint humans as just other animals. His conclusion says it all: not much research to back him up but since evolution exists, certainly we’ll find evidence for what we’re looking for.”
Pavlov’s biggest contribution to the field of psychology is classical conditioning, a theory about how behaviour is learned. He received a Nobel prize for his important contribution to science. Pavlov died in 1936 in Russia. Pavlov was a behaviourist and obviously a very good one.
However Becky, you are comparing apples with airplanes. The advancement since early 1900’s in animal behaviour has advanced and I am quoting the more involved fields of ecology, evolutionary biology and Jane Goodall who is a famous primatologist. Marc Bekoff is a fellow of the Animal Behaviour Society and a former Guggenheim fellow. He lectures internationally on animal behaviour, cognitive ethology (the study of animal minds), and behavioural ecology, and writes a science column about animal emotion for Psychology Today. Just look up the research that has gone into this.
We humans are animals, this is a fact, and if you cannot grasp that part of reality I believe honestly Becky that it is a waste of time you even trying to understand evolution.
“That is not even good science!”
This is a typical reaction when you pretend to know what science is Becky and it all just has to fit around your religious ideologies. I cannot find words to describe the disappointment I find in such a statement.
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OK, Steve, do what people always do: “It’s science! You have to believe science. Until science changes. Then you have to believe the NEW science.”
Sorry, but no. I’ll continue standing on the authority of the word of God.
What’s funny is that an ad is running here for a certain kind of dog food and they start out, Inside your dog is the soul of a wolf. But you don’t think humans have souls, you and all atheists, as I understand it. I, on the other hand, think only humans have souls. Not dogs.
But that’s what is happening in our western culture right now: people are trying to erase any divisions, even between humans and animals. You know where that will lead, don’t you?
Steve, just because I don’t agree with you does not mean I don’t understand what science is. I think I understand it better than you do, in fact, because you continue to say that scientists have found the place in the human brain that causes spirituality when in fact the very scientists who conduct the tests don’t even say that.
Yeah, we probably should end these conversations. It’s clear we are not getting anywhere.
Becky
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Becky, Yes look around you and there are 4 1/2 billion people that have been conned into believing that they are so special that they will be resurrected, brought back from the dead, because they believe Christ was resurrected. It is magical thinking and totally delusional. It would be nice to have physical evidence, but since it can never be known what happens after death, common sense is the best option.
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Grogalot, ironic that you say you want evidence, then proceed to guess. There IS evidence since Jesus Christ went before us and did rise from the dead. What greater evidence could there be? None I’m aware of. It is only your idea that you know better that 4 1/2 billion people, that your “common sense” out rules theirs.
And I’ll ask again, since we have the pattern in nature of a seed radically transforming into a plant and a caterpillar radically transforming into a butterfly, why is it “common sense” to believe that humans don’t do the same thing?
Becky
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So now you are a butterfly? Seeds, like eggs, are a life form. Where do you think babies come from? And, butterflies die; and if they don’t lay any eggs or their eggs don’t hatch, they will go extinct. Resurrection is a lie and believers have been scammed.
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I’m sorry you don’t understand analogies, Grogalot. You say that resurrection is a lie, but you don’t actually know that, since you also have not yet died. And you haven’t any answer to the fact that Jesus actually rose from the dead, which shows us that resurrection is real. But there is no answer to that. All those who don’t believe can say is, it’s a lie. No proof. No reason to dismiss it. No answer to the evidence that He is alive. Just a statement of disbelief, just because.
If only you’d actually do some study on the subject.
Becky
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In response to your July 3 comment, Steve:
” am trying to save as many Christians as possible from a wasted lifetime of subservience to a mythical being” Ah, so you are nothing more than an evangelizing atheist, one who wants to “brainwash” (to use your word) those who may not have a firm conviction. And you visit blogs of Christians because you don’t believe there are people who believe “this myth”? Well, by this time, you should realize there are plenty of us who do believe, not in a myth, but in a real God who loves us and gave His life for us.
“Sorry Becky but you are the prideful.” I have no idea why you wrote this when I scolded you for equating my faith in God with the nonsense of people who roll around on the floor. And as it happens, I understand the definition of pride quite well. But you are mistaken that defending Christianity is prideful. I’m certainly guilty of the charge in a lot of areas, but that’s not one of them. First, there’s nothing indefensible at all in standing up and saying God exists. That’s actually called defending the truth and whole systems of such defense, called apologetics, have grown up because of people like you who attack the faith out of your own bias. I mean, you continue to suppose that in your ignorance of Scripture, you can claim to know what Christians believe, and that it is wrong, is outlandish.
But to address your point, is it prideful to say to a flat earth believer that the earth is round and they are mistaken? Steve, declaring the truth is not prideful. When it comes to fake Christians, all I have to do is look into the Bible and see what true Christianity looks like, what those who started the first church believed. Anyone who doesn’t agree with those ideas? False. I don’t care how sincere they might be. I don’t care how you think it looks. The reality is, the first church and the people who roll around on the ground, don’t agree, so I can’t say I believe the one but also support the other. That’s no different than saying apples and oranges are the same. It’s not prideful to state the obvious there, and it’s not prideful to state the obvious when it comes to Christianity. But you clearly don’t know what Christianity is all about, being as you have not read the Bible.
“humans have very complex overactive brains compared to dogs, however fundamentally we are very similar” Steve, I’ve never denied that we are similar to other animals, that we are animals. In fact I embrace the fact. I’ve sent you the link to an excellent article that addresses this: because mice and monkeys have similarities in their make up with our own, should be expected since we have the same Creator. But the issue you continue to sidestep is that we also have souls, evidenced by the fact that we worship. You have no explanation for that. The evolution card you tried to play doesn’t work, because that would mean worship was somehow linked to our survival, though you say now it is nothing but fabrication.
Two problems with your “answer”: you are simply making up what you want to believe about why the first people worship. YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. You have far less evidence (zero) for believing this than I do for believing in God’s existence. And second, you persist in this idea that God only fills in the gaps, that what humans didn’t understand, they simply explained by saying, Must be God. But that simply is not true and does not explain why we who embrace science, use science to glorify God and to marvel at His ingenious design, still believe in Gpd. Oh, I forgot. You don’t believe in design. You think, again without evidence, that the incredible detail and intricacy of the DNA molecule happened by chance. That’s a lot of faith that you carry around, Steve, all in an idea without evidence.
“what pre-Christian era god did Yahweh manifest himself as? ” He manifested Himself as the One true God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, the sustainer of all He had made.
“No, I don’t. So tell me what evil will avail from animals?” The evil won’t come from animals, Steve. They have no morality or any sense of morality. The evil will come from humans because we have a sin nature. And we are headed toward bestiality, which has already raised its ugly head. How long before people start advocating for it, demanding laws to legalize it, then protect it, then promote it?
Steve, I have never ignored you. I say over and over again that the articles you link to don’t say what you want them to say. Same with this one, which you’ve referenced before: “A new study from a team of neuroscientists shows that what they feel is caused by activating the brain’s reward circuits” So the article says the “feelings” are caused by something in the brain, not the experiences themselves. Read the article again for yourself and then take it out of your arsenal that proves something about religion. Apart that religious experience generates emotions that brain imaging picks up, it proves NOTHING.
“Your current president was voted in by Christians, Trump is supposedly a Christian and he is a very wealthy man.” You close by saying it is fact, but it’s not! Mr. Trump was voted in by conservatives. If you knew anything about America, you’d know that there are many types of conservatives, some actually pretty scary, if you ask me. You would also know that Mr. Trump, when asked directly if he’d repented of his sins, said he has nothing to repent for, that when he makes a mistake he just tries harder to do something to make up for it. Actually he sounds a lot more like you than he does any Christian I know. But you are right, apparently, that he is wealthy. One out of three is good hitting in baseball, but in this instance it does little to support your idea, which seems to be to equate Christianity with America. I don’t know why, but I get that you’re against America. Other Australians have said the same sort of thing. But whatever you feel about America should be separate from your thinking about Christianity. And I do hope you will think when it comes to God’s existence instead of turning to your prejudice against Christianity or false Christianity or your perceived ideas of Christianity.
Thanks for the dialogue over these months, Steve. I’m sorry to let you down as to your atheist aims. Well, I’m not really sorry. The truth is, our exchanges have only encouraged me in my faith. May God open your eyes someday.
Becky
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