In the section I read today of The Dawkins Delusion? by Alister and Joanna Cullicut McGrath ( InterVarsity Press), the authors referred to something like a no-God box atheists put themselves in. It resonated with me because of a discussion I had with an atheist over at Spec Faith some months ago. At one point during the discussion, it dawned on me how limited is an atheist who believes that all we can know as truth must be discovered by the scientific method.
Essentially, an atheist who rules out the metaphysical has narrowed the options of what he will explore. If there is only the natural, then there can be no supernatural explanations of the things we don’t understand.
I’m reading John Olson’s Shade right now in preparation for next week’s CSFF blog tour, and the protagonist (one of them) came up against this very position. There can be no supernatural explanations, so when someone experiences something inexplicable, the only conclusion can be, You imagined it, conjured it up out of your diseased mind. Which is what many atheists conclude about Christians. God does not exist, they say, so a Christian who “hears” His voice, is a fool, a liar, a simpleton, or mentally ill.
It’s not so far from the conclusion C.S. Lewis (popularized by Josh McDowell) came to about Jesus based on the claims He made about Himself (liar, lunatic, or Lord)—with one exception: C.S. Lewis added that Jesus could be who He said He was.
The atheist gives himself no such option because he’s already ruled God out.
I commented on Mike Duran’s blog this morning regarding something he wrote about evolution, and once again, it hit me how many more options Christians have than atheists. After all, if an omnipotent God does exist (and He does), then what are the limits? But by making the presupposition that there is no God, an atheist is then left to figure things out via Man’s limited observations and reasoning. No wonder science keeps discovering new things and theories keep changing and science textbooks have to be rewritten.
Spiritually? Not much has changed from the day God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden. Oh, sure, lots of history has happened, including the fulfillment of the prophecy to Satan that Man would bruise him on the head and Satan would bruise Him on the heel. And of course God gave us His written word as well as His Son. But we don’t need to continually discover new revelation in order to make sense of our world.
And we don’t need to fear new discoveries. They will always make sense because we have a God who can do the impossible. When something looks incongruous with Scripture, we can rest in the knowledge that it is not. Our understanding may be incomplete or veiled or our interpretation may be in error—we have lots of possibilities. The atheist in his box? Not so many. His data can’t be wrong—at least until another scientist comes along and proves that it is.
The earth is flat, after all. We can all see that it is flat. Sadly, the most adamant fundamentalist extremists just might be atheists who box themselves into a field of knowledge they know will most probably be altered one day.
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A Christian Worldview of Fiction 
It’s funny how much science has had to rethink its own assumptions. Early astronomers believed the stars could be numbered, and set out to do so. Course, the telescope changed all that. Assuming to know the rules of the game can be dangerous, especially in a world of black holes, quarks, quantum physics, and spontaneous human combustion. I’m wondering that “the box” you refer to is actually the atheist’s own arrogant assumptions, his reliance on rationality and method, his presumption to know the Ultimate Truth. Science itself had to expand to incorporate its own findings. Hey, that’s the same thing I did when I became a Christian.
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It is interesting to me how Christians seem unable to grasp atheism. Atheists don’t choose to be atheists, we just don’t believe the story that you Christians have presented us. We have heard your Good News, and find in unconvincing.
Also, atheists don’t believe in magic, or extra-terrestrials, or telekinesis, or fortune telling, or astrology, or healing by touch, or demons or angels… or any of the other thousands of gods that people have believed in over the millennia.
And about the all powerful and all knowing god that you worship, you should ask yourself sometime how is that an all powerful-all knowing god would allow a young girl in Sudan to be repeatedly raped, and then murdered? Do you think that she was begging a god to save her, but didn’t get his name right? Or perhaps this all knowing, full of love and mercy god has another plan, and we ought to all rejoice in this senseless death… it was the god’s will? Great, he heard the screams and prayers but was unmoved?
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Mike, you ask some hardcore questions–emotionally charged, but more than reasonable to ask. It boils down to: if God is all good and all powerful, how can he allow such suffering and pain in the world?
There are very good answers to that question. And I will be glad to go into it if no one else here takes up that mantle.
But even before that, could I ask you a question? You brought up the idea of the rape and murder of that young girl in the Sudan. It seems to me that your clear implication is that the raping and murdering are wrong actions, evil…terrible things? But I’m wondering on what basis you might claim those actions to be wrong? In other words, you are holding the rapist and murderer to some standard that says unequivocally that those two actions are wrong. What’s the standard?
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Wayne,
Hi.
I’m not talking about standards. I am talking about the Christian god. Christianity doesn’t support rape and murder… oh, wait! You are right. I forgot about when the Christian god says it is okay to kill everyone, then I guess it is okay. Like Abraham, or when it is those darn citizens of Ai, “And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.” 6:21
Maybe your god didn’t say for Joshua to do that? But surely, that can’t be correct because it is written in the Bible. Perhaps the commandment about not killing, should have an asterisk that says that if the Christian god is whispering in your ear to kill, then of course that is a blessed messagr? Maybe that is what is going on in Sudan? God is telling those soldiers it is okay to rape that girl, and kill her too?
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Mike, I sympathize with your anger. You look around and anyone can cite horrid injustices happening in every corner of the world. How can it be? Especially, you say, if there is a God.
For an unbeliever it’s impossible to see the world and God any other way. You can notice His creation and its order and consider He could’ve done that, but when it comes to injustice and atrocities, you can’t reconcile a good God with any of it. Why didn’t He intervene? Why didn’t He strike down the rapists, the child rapists, the brutal torturers, etc.? If He can, why doesn’t He?
Usually, someone who’s become disillusioned with his/her perceptions of who God is, either through trauma, tragedy, or constant doubting as to His person/character, finally concludes God can’t exist because of His failure to intervene in the sinful ways of mankind all over the globe. Those who can’t rectify God’s judgments on nations/peoples in the Old Testament and equate killing/wars with premeditated murders disdain God’s choice of judgments and His decisions based on their limited scope of knowledge or the small picture. However, everyone will be judged. It’s interesting to note that it starts in “the house of God”.
There’s no doubt it takes faith to believe that God is who He says He is, to allow for the freedom of choice for sinful mankind, to reason the offering of His Son is for all sinners, and to wonder at His discretion. It’s hard to believe He sees the hearts of all, He loves each one in spite of all of the wickedness in our nature. The ultimate “Life” isn’t here–it’s in eternity. Those who suffer here–and those who don’t–always have the option to spend eternity in heaven, free of the horrors of this world. But I would agree it’s hard to look past today.
You have the option. It’s yours and yours alone. Faith is given to each individual, but it’s up to you what you do with it.
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After all, if an omnipotent God does exist (and He does), then what are the limits? But by making the presupposition that there is no God, an atheist is then left to figure things out via Man’s limited observations and reasoning.
My wife once met a woman who claimed that God had made her invisible. This happened at a women’s luncheon at an Assemblies of God church that my wife attended at the invitation of a friend. After the luncheon, women were invited to share what God had done in their lives during the past week. It seems that this woman had gone to the hospital to visit a friend in the intensive care unit. According to hospital rules, only relatives were allowed in the ICU, but the woman was able to walk right past the nurse’s station without being challenged. While she sat and prayed with her friend, nurses came in and out of the room without taking notice of her. Therefore, the woman concluded that God must have made her invisible.
You are correct that there are no limits on an omnipotent God. If supernatural explanations must be presumed to be as plausible as natural explanations, then I have no reason to doubt that God really made that woman invisible. I cannot rationally suppose the nurses did not notice her or that they thought she was a relative or that they thought a visitor for the patient was more important than enforcing the rule. On the other hand, if I am going to allow for supernatural explanations, I cannot be sure that the woman’s invisibility was not the work of witches, fairies, pixies, genies, or leprechauns.
The problem with magical thinking is that there are no limits. Absolutely any one of my limited observations could be caused by phenomena that obey none of the natural laws that I rely upon with my limited reasoning. Choosing any particular explanation is purely arbitrary.
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“Magical thinking” is a far cry from supernatural existence. You’re right: you can choose to identify supernatural phenomena with any names you want, Vinny, but that phenomena only comes from one of two sources.
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Nicole,
I would like you to consider that not believing is not a “choice.” Do you believe that you could just up and choose to not believe? If so, please do that for five minutes, and then choose to go back and believe again. I look forward to hearing the results of the experiment!
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No, to answer your question: I couldn’t. However, believers have abandoned their faith and returned to the world’s philosophies. We all start out in the same lost state, Mike. Accountability for spiritual awareness is determined at whatever age God determines for an individual.
You choose to not believe as soon as you can reason. It is your choice.
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Vinny, thanks for stopping by and taking the time to comment. You gave an interesting story to illustrate the point. I suspect you think it’s over-the-top ridiculous. I actually don’t, primarily for one reason. It’s consistent with what I know to be true about God and His work.
When I first got to the line about the woman thinking God made her invisible, I admit, I may have rolled my eyes. 😉 There are many people claiming that God does all kinds of things that are not consistent with His nature, His plan, His purpose.
That’s one reason the Bible is important. It is the authoritative source that makes sense of all these claims. Sure, supernatural events can be caused by evil spirits. I believe that as much as I believe in God because it is consistent with what the Bible says. But evil spirits throughout the Bible were involved in destruction (repeatedly throwing one person into fire, prompting another to cut himself, and so on) and to oppose God.
Since the woman in your story spent time praying with her friend, I come to the logical conclusion that no evil force was behind whatever happened, so either she imagined it or God did something miraculous.
The Bible talks about God blinding the eyes of Israel’s enemies so that Elisha was able to lead them into the teeth of the Israelite army (though the context makes it clear they could actually see—they just didn’t realize where they were). So who knows if He made that woman invisible or blinded the eyes of the hospital workers. 🙂
The main point is, I agree with the conclusion that if the supernatural exists, it isn’t just God who exists. But once I toss away the box of just-what-I-can-see-around-me, I do need some way of making sense of the range of extra-natural activity.
Here’s how I sort it: some is imagined, some is pretend, some is faked, some is of God, some is of His angels, some is of Satan (a rebellious angel), some is of demons (lesser fallen angels). As I indicated above, the Bible gives enough material for us to sort through which is which.
Becky
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cirdog (aka Mike D) you said: I’m wondering that “the box” you refer to is actually the atheist’s own arrogant assumptions, his reliance on rationality and method, his presumption to know the Ultimate Truth. I would presume so.
Man seems to have a penchant for wanting to be in charge, having the last say, being the final judge and authority. It’s not part of our nature to humble ourselves or say, “I can’t.”
I know my own pride and the part it played in my spiritual journey. I wanted so much to say I had no sin. I was just a little kid at the time and didn’t have any of the Big Sins to point to in my life. So my idea was to find someone else in the Bible who didn’t sin. If there was such a person, then just maybe I wasn’t a sinner either.
I came up with King David and asked my mom or maybe my sister if King David had sinned. Uh, OK, so that one didn’t work. I moved on to Moses. Surely Moses who spoke with God in the burning bush had no sin. Wrong again.
I don’t know how many Bible personalities I went through before I realized, even the Bible greats sinned. So what chance did I have of being the only person not to sin (I’d already decided the real people in my life were definitely sinners! 😮 Just more pride showing through).
Becky
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portlandmike, I think Wayne asked a great question, but I wanted to address the suffering issue to a degree. It really is one of the hardest questions—to the point that books and books have been written about it.
Interestingly, God dealt with the subject head on in the Bible through the book of Job. Here was a man who was going through terrible suffering, from financial ruin to the death of his children and the loss of his own health. His wife pretty much abandoned him and his friends said the stuff he was going through had to be punishment for some evil he had done.
For most of the exchange, Job held to his own righteousness and basically said God was wrong for bringing all this stuff on him. In the end, though, God speaks with Job and does little more than show Job who He is. Job immediately repents. Repents of what? Repents of blaming God, I believe.
That’s the short version, obviously. As I said, books and books have been written on the subject. It is not a question most Christians ignore or make light of. I hope I haven’t done so in my post, either.
Becky
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Nicole you say to me that “Accountability for spiritual awareness is determined at whatever age God determines for an individual.
You choose to not believe as soon as you can reason. It is your choice.”
You say on the one hand it is up to your god to determine when I become “spiritually” aware. And then the next sentence you say it is up to me to decide. I can’t decide to believe in something that I don’t believe in. It is like the homosexual argument, where Christians say that queers choose to be gay… and they could choose to be straight. Try to choose to be gay for five minutes… then choose back. I can’t do it. And I can’t choose to believe in an invisible supernatural being.
Rebecca, I don’t think that the Job story answers the “suffering” dilemma. I do think it shows clearly that there isn’t just one god in the Christian world. Obviously Satan is a god too. The book of Job also shows a heartless deity that isn’t all knowing, but who is willing to cause great suffering to see what happens and make his pal Satan wrong. Give the book a full read from start to finish… you may get my point.
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Mike, Becky is one of the most diplomatic and generous hosts of a blog that could possibly exist. How you choose to read the Word is up to you, but I can assure you Becky has probably studied it a lot more than you have, so if you want to get snide about your Biblical prowess: hit me. I have far less patience.
It is up to you to decide what you believe, Mike. As a four month old, I doubt you chose to be an unbeliever or a believer. God recognizes people’s coherency. There comes a point where you can look around at all He’s created and investigate Him. If you decide to seek Him out, He’s there for you. Simplistically put, but evident. His desire is to rescue and redeem precisely because of suffering in a fallen world. The goal is eternity with Him where suffering no longer exists.
Since you profess Biblical knowledge but choose not to believe what it says, reread the first chapter of Romans for a snapshot of the present days.
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Nicole,
You say that “it is up to you to decide what you believe.” Let me say once more that there is no decision involved in not believing in your god. If you say, “Mike, do you believe that Jesus died for your sins?” And I say “No.” I am not deciding. There was no choice involved. I don’t believe. I heard the story, but don’t believe it.
With regards to regards to Rebecca, if you feel that she needs your support because I have not accepted her hohaw about how the book of Job explains why an all powerful, all knowing god, allows murder and rape in the world, then I would encourage you also to read the book from start to finish. Then we can talk about what happens in the story, and what it means. But here I will lay out the plot:
The Christian god, makes a bet with another god Satan about the faith and love that the the Christian god’s favorite human being Job has in his heart for the Christian god. Satan says that Job worships the Christian god because the Christian god …”10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.”
So then the Christian god goes says to Satan “12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power.” In other words he takes that bet, and has allowed Satan god to go mess with Job’s life. So then Satan goes out and quickly Job’s sheep and camels and servants AND his four sons and three daughters are all dead! But Job doesn’t curse the Christian god. So Satan says something like…, well, I bet if you hurt Job himself he will curse you! “6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.” In other words, the Christian god is saying to the other god Satan, do what you want to with him. Just don’t kill him. This is just the first two chapters!
Imagine eh, a god who is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and yet he tortures one of his beloved humans to make a point to the evil ruler of Hades, who I presume doesn’t have those omniscient powers? The Christian god could say “Go to Hell to Satan,” but he doesn’t? He plays along? Is he lonely?
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Nice try, Mike. I’ve read the book. And, believe it or not, I can understand your interpretation. I would expect nothing less from you considering your perspective.
Obviously, you “chose” not to reread the first chapter of Romans. So what you’re saying is that if you’re presented with an opportunity to believe in Jesus or anything else which requires a thoughtful response, there’s no “choice” involved. That’s an interesting theory.
Jesus died for my sins and He died for yours, too. You don’t have to believe it, but it’s still a choice, a decision you alone make for yourself.
And Becky doesn’t “need” my support–she happens to be my friend, and I think your comments were rude and uncalled for since up to that point, everyone was being civil.
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Hi, Again, Mike
I respect the time you’ve evidently invested in your worldview. I’m a little taken aback by the hostile tone in your comments. Truth be told, however, I was pretty hostile toward Christians when I wasn’t one. Seriously, when I was working at a neighborhood video store back in the day, some lady who was renting a movie saw my cross and said, “Praise the Lord, brother, are you born again?”
You have never seen someone jump away like I did. I was like get away from me! lol. An honestly, we Christians can be hostile and judgmental as well, so I dare not accuse atheists of cornering the market.
You remind me of Paul: intelligent, fiery, confident, and determined. Who knows, God may make you into a mighty apologist for Christ. It’s happened many times before.
Just a few things in response. About being an atheist and whether or not you’ve made a decision? In the end, that’s semantics. You said you’ve heard the good news and found it unconvincing. You say “found” I say “decided.” Geddy Lee said it this way: “If you choose not to decide, you’ll still have made a choice.” Can I quote RUSH? Amen? And look, if the Bible is true, when you die, it will be very clear to you that you were given a choice, and you made a decision.
I’m sure you realize that the reason I asked you about your standard is because to have an absolute standard, you must have something beyond mankind. Otherwise it’s a crapshoot and anyone can make the rules. If there’s an absolute law, then there must be an absolute law giver.
You said, “Also, atheists don’t believe in magic, or extra-terrestrials, or telekinesis, or fortune telling, or astrology, or healing by touch, or demons or angels… or any of the other thousands of gods that people have believed in over the millennia.” When you said that, you meant “some” Atheists, right? And, that would probably include you. But many Atheists do believe in some of those things, esp. extra-terrestrials. In fact, well known atheists such as Richard Dawkins and Francis Crick have suggested that aliens may have seeded the earth (panspermia), and that’s how initial life arose.
There’s a great book out that takes a very logical look at atheism: It’s called “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist.” Definitely suggested reading.
In closing:
God gives evidence enough to convince those who want to find Him, but not enough to convince someone against his will. I suggest to you Mike, and to any truth-seekers who visit: read the Bible, and even if you doubt anyone is listening, ask God to help you understand His truth.
I am convinced that you will find what you’ve always been looking for, always needed–something that resonates deep within you like nothing else–if you read the Scriptures seeking God rather than parsing the prooftexts for ammunition.
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Nicole~
I have no idea what Romans 1 has to do with this. I read it. I don’t believe it has anything to do with reality.
The only rude thing I may do is to not capitalize your god’s name. There are thousands and thousands of gods you don’t believe in. Here is a popular god that millions of people believe in just as fervently as you believe in your Christian god.”
“The love between the Divine Mother and her human children is a unique relationship. Kali, the Dark Mother is one such deity with whom devotees have a very loving and intimate bond, in spite of her fearful appearance. In this relationship, the worshipper becomes a child and Kali assumes the form of the ever-caring mother. ”
Do you believe in her? Does she exist?
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Look, we’re coming from two different and opposite perspectives, Mike. Maybe you don’t hear yourself being rude. You can’t see any connection to the choice factor, the accountability factor, the current portrait of the choices men and women make today in Romans 1? It is reality on all counts.
To answer your final question: yes. But she is not a god, she is a demon who no doubt manifests “herself” to those who strive to experience her.
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Wayne~ I agree. Some atheists probably believe in extra-terrestrials. People do believe all kinds of wacky stuff. I spoke like that, about non-believers in gods don’t believe in magic and flying saucers and palmistry etc., because of a book called Sleeping with Extra-Terrestrials by Wendy Kaminer One of the points she makes in her book is that people who believe in gods are much more likely to embrace other magical beliefs. Don’t we all know people who believe in astrology UFOs, but who also believes in some mainline religion? This was our blogger Rebecca’s original point. That is, that we atheists are in a box because we can’t ascribe magical reasons to things that happen in our lives.
Try to entertain the possibility that it is as impossible for me to believe that any god exists, as it is for you to believe that your god doesn’t exist. The Christian god makes no more sense to me than any other magical thinking.
(later)
Let me rant a little about Christianity… something that has never occured to me to bring up anywhere… I’ve been a radio listener for many many decades, and of course I now have cable TV… and I still scan those shortwave radio dials now and then… anyway, there are hundreds of Christian ministers on the radio and TV, and over the decades, probably thousands… and they are all begging for money. Every single one of them. And they are an amazing self-absorbed cohort group if there ever was one. Ernest Angly was my all time favorite. Benny Hinn? Can you believe it? People believe that he is healing!? Swaggert! And Falwell and Robertson. Tedd Haggard, and Jim and Tammy Bakker, Creflo Dollar, Paula White. Joyce Meyer, Tony Alamo, Oral Roberts. Joel Osteen, Robert Tilton. Robert A. Schuller. We atheists don’t have a list of millionairs like this, who have all been made wealthy by asking for money from others.
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There are plenty of well known Christian ministers who you don’t see on TV but rely on the Lord for the income to tend to the orphans around the world, feed the poor, help the addicted, etc. The fact that you don’t know of them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You’ve listed some fallen men of faith–and I would agree some of those on your list hardly seem to be relying on their faith to produce their perceived “needs” for their “ministries”. But you will always be able to cite men/women who are “faulty” and have veered away from a true walk with the Lord. Always.
The reason is because you, me, and those you listed are people, prone to all kinds of sin. It’s our nature. That’s the precise reason we are separated from God and need a Savior–one provided by God Himself. None of us are perfect, infallible human beings. But I know, Mike: you equate Christianity with fairy tales and hoodwinking. Whether you admit it or not, that is your decision, your choice.
Whether you do or don’t have a list of millionaires who gained wealth by “asking” for money from others is irrelevant. Nobody has to give if they choose not to.
(Just a sidenote: no Christian believes that any man is responsible for healing.)
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The reason is because you, me, and those you listed are people, prone to all kinds of sin. It’s our nature. That’s the precise reason we are separated from God and need a Savior–one provided by God Himself.
The reason we need a Savior is because we are sinners… the reason we are sinners is because that is the way your god made us… how can anyone make sense of such circular logic?
Happily for me and my children, they were raised without thinking there was something fundamentally wrong with them.
The reason I posted all of those wacky persuasive super-wealthy evangelical ministers is because just believing in the Bible story makes one open to supporting those tv and radio CHRISTIAN preachers. You say, “Nobody has to give if they choose not to.” I urge you to think about your response a second. Ask yourself “why” do they give? Why do you think that Robert Tilton brings in about $200,000 dollars a day?
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Well, one of the ramification of living on the West Coast is that I come into discussions late. In this case it looks like you all are doing fine without me. Many interesting points I wish I had time to address, but I’ll stick with the ones Portland Mike addressed to me.
Nicole is right, Mike. I’ve read and studied the book of Job to some degree. Your comment “this is just the first two chapters” makes me wonder if you have read the entire book. But I don’t think we disagree on what Job went through. It was horrendous.
We do disagree on the God/Satan bet concept, however. This, for some reason, seems to be a popular view. Maybe this is semantics, but as I understand a bet, the parties involved risk something to gain something. God risked nothing and gained nothing. In fact, Satan risked nothing and lost nothing.
Instead, what developed in the spiritual realm was an affirmation of God’s truthfulness and Satan’s false view of Him. Basically Satan accused God of bribing his followers into following Him. Said they would never do so without the perks He lavished on them. God said, You’re wrong, and Job will prove it.
And indeed, God was right. Job refused to turn his back on God, even when he didn’t understand why he was going through such misery. He was not a pragmatist—whatever works for me, that’s what I’ll believe in. No. He understood God to be the Ruler of all, a belief God confirmed in the end.
Mike, you then brought up another issue: I do think it shows clearly that there isn’t just one god in the Christian world. Obviously Satan is a god too.
I don’t know how you are defining god, but yes, there are many, all false save the One. Satan’s whole deal was that he wanted God’s place. It was a power grab. And the thing is, atheism is nothing but that same thing. I want no god over me because I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul, the judge of what exists and what does not. It’s just Satan’s same line. He’s such a manipulator.
OK, one comment on the “do we chose to believe or not” discussion. If we don’t choose to believe, no one would ever “convert.” Alister McGrath, the author of The Dawkins Delusion? starts out telling of his own belief change, from atheism to Christianity. Josh McDowell, Lee Stroble, Wayne Batson, many others have had the same experience. I did too, but I’m sure you wouldn’t count my experience because my parents were also Christians.
The point is, once a person is convinced of the truth of something, they stop choosing and choosing again. If they aren’t convinced, they continue to examine the evidence.
I’ve experienced times of doubt before, when I wondered, What if I’m wrong. Or more seriously, If God is really good, then why … But in the end, my questions can’t demolish the evidence for God being exactly who He has revealed Himself to be within the pages of the Bible. I suppose you can say, at those points I chose again. I’m OK with that. I know that, in the end, going through spiritual crises made my faith stronger, not weaker.
Becky
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“The reason we need a Savior is because we are sinners… the reason we are sinners is because that is the way your god made us… how can anyone make sense of such circular logic?”
Here is the major flaw in your proposal, Mike. You are who you are because you decide how you want to be. God gave you life. He gave you a measure of faith for the opportunity to choose Him or to choose to be against Him. You have chosen to be against Him. He did not choose it for you. Neither did He choose it for mankind.
It doesn’t take a great pensive response. People often elevate men/women in politics, in religion, in entertainment. They believe in this cause or that cause, and they give accordingly. The point being: no one is forcing them to give. Correction: the government forces us “to give”.
I’m sorry you believe there is nothing fundamentally wrong with you. You are like the rest of us: flawed and unrighteous. It’s nothing to be proud of. I’m sure you’re a great guy with neat kids, but compared to God, you’re not so great.
Look, I don’t expect you to agree with me on anything. I’m a Christian. You’re not. I spent 30 years in the world without Christ. I know both sides. I wouldn’t return to be a captive of “the hollow and deceptive philosophies which depend on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” for anything. Been there. Done that.
If humanity was so great, there would be peace and community and harmony. Utopia. But man is too selfish and full of guile to produce anything good of lasting quality. He’s proven it for centuries.
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Hi Rebecca,
You say regarding the Bible story of Job,And indeed, God was right. Job refused to turn his back on God, even when he didn’t understand why he was going through such misery. He was not a pragmatist—whatever works for me, that’s what I’ll believe in. No. He understood God to be the Ruler of all, a belief God confirmed in the end.
God was right? God allows Satan to kill people in order to prove to Satan that Satan was wrong about Jobs love?
Mike, you then brought up another issue: I do think it shows clearly that there isn’t just one god in the Christian world. Obviously Satan is a god too.
I don’t know how you are defining god, but yes, there are many, all false save the One.
I’m mind boggeled 🙂 You are agreeing that they exist in your world, but that they are “false.” But obviously they have power, and act in the world. The One god doesn’t have power over them, or chooses not to act… except sometimes?
You say that, And the thing is, atheism is nothing but that same thing. I want no god over me because I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul, the judge of what exists and what does not. It’s just Satan’s same line. He’s such a manipulator.
I would like to encourage you to see that non-believers aren’t an “ism.” We don’t have a belief. We are without a belief in supernatural beings.
Later you say, OK, one comment on the “do we chose to believe or not” discussion. If we don’t choose to believe, no one would ever “convert.” Alister McGrath, the author of The Dawkins Delusion? starts out telling of his own belief change, from atheism to Christianity. Josh McDowell, Lee Stroble, Wayne Batson, many others have had the same experience. I did too, but I’m sure you wouldn’t count my experience because my parents were also Christians.
What I believe about people that get converted is that they join. They are like converts to Scientology. Most people are raised in a world of confusion and mystery, and have had their heads filled up with conspiracy theories, and encouraged to believe in magical explanations for coincidences. People want to be on the right side if it means acceptance and protection. When someone joins a cult or religion, then they feel that they know what is going on here. Feeling that you know what is going on here, IS high self esteem.
You say that, The point is, once a person is convinced of the truth of something, they stop choosing and choosing again. If they aren’t convinced, they continue to examine the evidence.
Convincing me of your truth would mean convincing me that there are supernatural beings. Any magical anything would do it. A paranormal something, or one healing by touch, would turn my world upside down. However, I think the chances of that happening are about the same as a flying saucer landing in Times Square.
Isn’t the issue really about magical thinking? You believe that there are hidden explanations for what is really going on here, and those explanations never occur to me?
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Nicole you say, Here is the major flaw in your proposal, Mike. You are who you are because you decide how you want to be. God gave you life. He gave you a measure of faith for the opportunity to choose Him or to choose to be against Him. You have chosen to be against Him. He did not choose it for you. Neither did He choose it for mankind.
You say that an invisible supernatural being “made me.” You are saying that you believe in that magical invisible beings exist who have unimaginable powers. I can’t just choose and and say, “Me too.” I’ve lived all of these years, and never saw one supernatural event. And Im speaking out recently because I’m shocked that so many people do. Our TVs are full of ghosts and vampires and psychics and evangelists. We need to wake up. We are the rarest most perfect beings that exist in the Universe. We are conscious with words flowing in our brains. We have are word beings, busy naming everything. And now we have computers, a whole new language (DOS) and now the explosion of windows opening up that we fill with words.
Nicole you say,I’m sorry you believe there is nothing fundamentally wrong with you. Read that line a few times. See how oppressed and sad your beliefs must look to me? You believe that there is something fundamentally wrong here… and I believe it is stupendously right!
Nicole you say,If humanity was so great, there would be peace and community and harmony. Utopia. But man is too selfish and full of guile to produce anything good of lasting quality. He’s proven it for centuries.
Humanity is exactly like humanity is. Why should everything be perfect? But things have gotten much better than when we were ruled by the Church. We are improving, the world is getting educated, flatter, healthier. Probably you believe that the world is going downhill, but I believe this is the century of biology, and that most diseases will be conquered, our environment will become much cleaner this century, democracy will flourish, andwars will become much less frequent and violent with democracies spread.
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Phew! And you think we believe in the supernatural! My goodness, your last paragraph proves that you do as well.
Why shouldn’t “everything” be perfect? Why is there disease? Why are there wars? Why do you think the very suffering you speak about is “stupendously right”? If the world is getting better, why are there no cures for diseases which have been in existence since . . . well, since the beginning whenever you think that was. And if only the strong survive, why did disease survive with them? Why are new strains coming into existence? Why aren’t those horrendous crimes against people in nations that have been in existence the longest still going on? And exactly what parts of the world education is preventing any of these circumstances and atrocities?
My “beliefs” are anything but “oppressed and sad”. They are freeing. They give reason and overview to everything in this world.
Your beef seems to be with the “supernatural” which you equate with “magical”. You’ve never seen anything supernatural so therefore it doesn’t exist. Hmm. You’ve never seen me, and I can assure you I’m not a random computer program. Have you seen the South Pole? Did you watch your sperm unite with your wife’s egg to form your children? Can you see beyond the farthest star?
I have seen and experienced supernatural “events”, but I don’t expect you to accept that. I’m telling you the truth, but you can choose to think of me as being deluded or as being a liar. Neither one would be accurate in this case, but I’m not likely to convince you . . . of anything.
And just so you know, I wouldn’t expect you to just say, “Me too”. I would expect you to investigate the claims if you were so inclined. Which I recognize you are not. God doesn’t have to prove Himself to you. But He would make Himself available to you if you were even slightly interested in knowing Him. Which you’ve made quite clear you are not–interested in knowing an “invisible being” with “unimaginable powers”.
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Mannnnn, this discussion is just awesome. We should publish this dialogue somewhere. Listen, thanks for everyone investing so much time in this. I know these are incendiary topics, but mannnn…do we need to discuss them, esp. in this day in age.
Personally, I’m really glad that there’s been an upsurge in Atheistic discussion. I think it gives Christians an amazing opportunity to share their faith. So thanks, Mike, you really are helping us to sharpen our discussion tools. You remind us that platitudes and circular reasoning won’t cut it any more for us than it does for atheists.
Couple more things to add and then, I’m done. To say that we as a nation and world are getting better cannot be substantiated unless you qualify it as we’re becoming more technologically advanced. Certainly we have advances in medicine and science. But what about relationally? What about quality of life? If anything, and the statistics will bear this out, we are a more violent, selfish, greedy, prurient, and wasteful world than we were even as recently as fifty years ago. And true, many diseases may yet be cured, but I wonder if cancer, aids, an other horrible diseases wouldn’t already be cured if our nation and our world weren’t so bent on murdering scores of unborn children.
To close up: Mike makes a good point about the televangelists. It is the same point that can be made about the misuse of any power. The misuse of religion, the misuse of Christianity is the blackest of evils. But just because some nonChristians have used God’s name to their own filthy ends, and just because many genuine Christians have screwed up royally is no reason at all to dismiss Christianity. If we used that logic in most of life, think of the mess. Hypocrites work at some restaurants. That’s it I’m never eating out again. Some auto mechanics turn out to be wife-beaters…guess I can’t take my car to the shop.
What people really need to see are the fundamental differences between these two worldviews:
Atheism tells the world, you have absolutely no basis for absolute truth. At best, you have a herd mentality somehow leading toward a common set of precepts. At worst you have a free for all where everyone decides for him or herself what’s right no matter what it does to anyone eles. Ignore the fact that every civilization since the dawn of time has had a standard of right and wrong. It’s simply coincidence or sociology at work. Nothing more.
Atheism tells the world that all people are great big cosmic accidents. You are meaningless results of random chance. You are no greater or no worse than a cockroach or a porcupine. And your life is worth no more or no less than other living things. Life began with molecules colliding or some primordial muck being struck by lightning. Never mind that we cannot explain how the molecule, muck, or lightning got there in the first place.
Atheism tells the world that there is no reason for people to exist. Again, it’s all chance. There is nothing transcendent about humanity. There is no eternal you. This life is all there is. You are plantfood when you die. Nothing more.
Atheism tells the world that all the beauty we witness in its most amazing complicated forms from the intricate language of DNA to the bio machinery in even the simplest cells–are not designed by intelligent life (unless maybe aliens did it).
Atheism tells the world that there’s no such thing as a miracle. All the people whose cancer mysteriously vanished must have simply had wrong diagnoses. All those people who left lifetimes of addiction in an instant and have never gone back, must have just looked inside themselves and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
Atheism tells the world, why not abort babies? Why not euthanize the old or the infirm? Why not grow clones to harvest their body parts? Why not have sex with multiple partners, with the same sex, with anything that turns you on?
Atheism tells those who mourn to just lean on the memories of those who have died, for you will never seen them again.
Atheism tells the world that religion is poisoning the world. Nevermind the charities, nevermind the missionaries, nevermind the myriad examples of good done by people of faith. It’s all cover for evil.
Atheism tells the world that 90% of the world’s population in all recorded history, untold billions of superstitious fools, 5,762,458,768 people currently living and believing in a supernatural god are ALL wrong.
Atheism tells the world that really there is no hope.
ON THE OTHER HAND….
Christianity tells the world that there is absolute truth; that every person is made in God’s image and has the truth of God written on his/her heart. There are definite right and wrong actions.
Christianity tells the world that every person was carefully and lovingly created by a transcendent God, a God who always has been and always will be. Each of you has infinite value.
Christianity tells the world that all people are transcendent as well. You were designed for a purpose. There’s a reason you are here. And when you die, you will live on forever.
Christianity tells the world that all the beauty and complexity in this word was indeed created by an intelligent designer who wanted all people to have an amazing and diverse world in which to live.
Christianity tells the world that the evil that we experience is a result of mankind throughout history turning away from God; that even the whole of creation has become a violent and dangerous place because of sin.
Christianity tells the world that miracles can and do happen. You can pray and ask God to help you. You can witness God freeing people from addictive bondage or rescuing them from impossible situations. And more than anything else, you can witness the miracle of salvation where God sent his own son to die for you. HIS OWN SON loving you enough–even when you were his enemy and filthy with evil–even then He loved you enough to suffer and die for you. And why? So you could be restored and live with God in heaven forever.
Christianity tells the world that life matters. God knew us all even in the womb as He formed us. None of us has the right to kill the unborn or the infirm. These babies are precious in His sight as are you. Christianity tells the world that one man should marry and stay with one woman giving stability and loving structure to a home.
Christianity tells those who mourn that, for the believer, this is not the end. You will see loved ones again. This life is just a drop in the comprehensive ocean of eternity…and it’s all waiting for you.
Christianity tells the world that faith can move mountains, save lives, cure disease, and change the way people live.
Christianity tells the world that the untold billions throughout the centuries were right that there is a God. Christianity goes on to explain to the world who this God is and how you can get to know Him and be with Him forever.
Christianity tells the world there is hope.
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I agree with Wayne—great discussion. And Mike, thanks for hanging in there and addressing three different commenters. You’re doing an impressive job answering each one of us.
I’d love to address your comment to me point by point because there’s a lot there to discuss. But for the sake of time, I’ll focus on two things.
First “magic.” I thought Nicole gave a masterful answer. There are many, many things we take by faith, and she named a few. I’ll add gravity to that list. Or how about atoms? DNA, for that matter? Or black holes.
We accept the existence of these things because someone else has studied them and reported to us of their existence. We trust them. They have the credentials to make us believe in what they say.
There are actually some people who claim the Holocaust did not happen. It sounds nuts because they have to discount so much evidence, but they don’t trust the sources. Other people claim man never went to the moon, that the pictures were faked and the story fabricated. Again, they don’t believe the sources.
I look at your disbelief in God much the same way. There is so much evidence, if you would trust the sources. Not blindly. You should do your homework and find credible people.
Alister McGrath is one. I had to smile at your characterization of him as someone who converted because he wanted to join, because he wanted to feel like he was on the right side. You don’t have to read but a page or two of The Dawkins Delusion? to realize how far off that view of him would be. He’s an Oxford scholar, a scientist, extremely well read, and doesn’t strike me at all as a person would care a whit how many people agreed or disagreed with him.
OK, the other thing I wanted to comment on was this: I’m mind boggeled 🙂 You are agreeing that they exist in your world, but that they are “false.” But obviously they have power, and act in the world. The One god doesn’t have power over them, or chooses not to act… except sometimes?
Well, that’s why I thought we needed to define “god,” but neither of us has. I believe a god is something someone worships. A true God, then is someone deserving of worship and a false god is one who isn’t.
Atheists worship Man. Not formally. I’m not saying atheists have created a religion out of their atheism, but it is clearly a belief system—a closed one at that—with Man at the apex. You yourself said as much to Nicole.
As to God having power over the false gods, He isn’t in a hurry. He has told us that there will come a day of judgment. Until then, evil and good grow together. The New Testament even records a story Jesus told on this subject. A landowner discovered weeds and wheat both growing in his field. His servants asked if they should pull out the weeds but he said no lest the wheat be uprooted, too. In other words, it is for the sake of those who will follow God that he doesn’t “pull the weeds” now.
And I trust Him with this, even when it appears to me that pulling the weeds would be a better plan. Who am I to tell God He isn’t seeing the clear picture? I’ve got a pin-sized view of the sun’s eclipse because I’m not capable of staring at it with the naked eye. God has no such limitation and sees reality uncovered and unencumbered.
Becky
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Wayne~
Notice at the top of your post that you capitalized atheism. Atheism isn’t a belief system. It is non-belief. There is no “ism” to being an atheist. We don’t have meetings… we don’t have shared beliefs. You yourself are an atheist when it comes to all the thousands of other gods. You don’t believe in them… just like I don’t believe in what you are saying.
But I have read the Bible, so I do have and idea about what is written in there. For example, YOU SAY that “Christianity tells those who mourn that, for the believer, this is not the end. You will see loved ones again.” Where does it say that in the Bible? Where does Jesus say, “You will see loved ones again?”
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Rebecca~
Thanks, I am glad you are enjoying the discussion. I just recently put “atheist” @ “atheism” in my Google Alerts. Your blog came up 🙂
You say, First “magic.” I thought Nicole gave a masterful answer. There are many, many things we take by faith, and she named a few. I’ll add gravity to that list. Or how about atoms? DNA, for that matter? Or black holes.
We, or I don’t take these scientific FACTS on faith. Gravity, DNA, black holes, and atoms, all exist. They can be proved by “scientific method.” They aren’t theories, or ideas that require faith… blind faith. Nor, as you say that we must have faith “scientists” to believe in these observations. That isnt the case. “Scientific method,” does not require faith in anyone.
Rebecca you say in defense of believing in magic that, There are actually some people who claim the Holocaust did not happen. It sounds nuts because they have to discount so much evidence, but they don’t trust the sources. Other people claim man never went to the moon, that the pictures were faked and the story fabricated. Again, they don’t believe the sources.
Frankly, you haven’t a leg to stand on. Bringing in Holocaust deniers in as legitimate questioners of faith of recent historians is preposterous.
You say that, I look at your disbelief in God much the same way. There is so much evidence, if you would trust the sources. Not blindly. You should do your homework and find credible people.
Homework? Do you really think a smart person about gods could make me believe? Even how you write it here and capitalize your god’s name. What about all the other gods? Could I find someone who would make me believe in Allah or Vishnu?
You say, Alister McGrath is one. I had to smile at your characterization of him as someone who converted because he wanted to join, because he wanted to feel like he was on the right side. You don’t have to read but a page or two of The Dawkins Delusion? to realize how far off that view of him would be. He’s an Oxford scholar, a scientist, extremely well read, and doesn’t strike me at all as a person would care a whit how many people agreed or disagreed with him.
You have faith in Alister eh? I said nothing about him actually. I said that I believe that people who convert are often people who want to be a part of a group. They don’t want to be on the outside, they want to join, and belong.
You say, I thought we needed to define “god,” but neither of us has. I believe a god is something someone worships. A true God, then is someone deserving of worship and a false god is one who isn’t.
That isn’t how I define a god. To me a god is any supernatural being.
You say that, Atheists worship Man. Not formally. I’m not saying atheists have created a religion out of their atheism, but it is clearly a belief system—a closed one at that—with Man at the apex. You yourself said as much to Nicole.
Well, saying that atheists worship is just absurd. Sorry, but we are just people who don’t accept that there are invisible beings. That is about it. Your god doesn’t get special criticism in non-belief. There are NO gods. No psychic phenomena. No extraterrestrials taking people to their space ships at night. No psychics finding murderers. No Allah, no Vishnu, or people who can heal by touch.
And going back to the idea that there is some person who could make me believe. Some authority…. don’t you think if there was one person who could make anyone believe in your god, then everyone would believe?
You say, As to God having power over the false gods, He isn’t in a hurry. He has told us that there will come a day of judgment. Until then, evil and good grow together. The New Testament even records a story Jesus told on this subject. A landowner discovered weeds and wheat both growing in his field. His servants asked if they should pull out the weeds but he said no lest the wheat be uprooted, too. In other words, it is for the sake of those who will follow God that he doesn’t “pull the weeds” now.
As a father myself, I can’t imagine an all powerful and loving god that chooses not to HEAL and KEEP SAFE all of his children. The god of your choice has constrictions on his super powers. Rules. Magic plans that can’t be changed. It is a story that you believe, but to my ears sounds like a Dungeons and Dragons cast of characters.
You close saying, And I trust Him with this, even when it appears to me that pulling the weeds would be a better plan. Who am I to tell God He isn’t seeing the clear picture? I’ve got a pin-sized view of the sun’s eclipse because I’m not capable of staring at it with the naked eye. God has no such limitation and sees reality uncovered and unencumbered.
Your Quest rules. You are sharing with me your imaginary beings ability scores.
Finally, I want to say once again, that being a non-believer, an atheist, doesn’t single out your beliefs about your god. Believers in the Christian god have no belief in the Greek gods. Pure non-belief. I am like that with all of the gods. When you say that your God has no such limitation and sees reality uncovered and unencumbered. I have to wonder with what for eyes… and “reality?” What reality? All and Everything always? And you would say… yes?
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Nicole~
Nicole you ask,Why shouldn’t “everything” be perfect? Why is there disease? Why are there wars? Why do you think the very suffering you speak about is “stupendously right”? If the world is getting better, why are there no cures for diseases which have been in existence since . . . well, since the beginning whenever you think that was. And if only the strong survive, why did disease survive with them? Why are new strains coming into existence? Why aren’t those horrendous crimes against people in nations that have been in existence the longest still going on? And exactly what parts of the world education is preventing any of these circumstances and atrocities?
I’m not sure why you believe that there ought to be a perfect world. I have no idea what a perfect world would mean even. But with regards to diseases, science has made tremendous advances in the last 75 years. Even today there is news that maybe an AIDS patient has been cured with bone marrow transplant.
Many countries have terrible governments that deprive their citizens of education and opportunity. As democracy spreads wars and a healthier happier population grows too.
You say to me, Your beef seems to be with the “supernatural” which you equate with “magical”. You’ve never seen anything supernatural so therefore it doesn’t exist. Hmm. You’ve never seen me, and I can assure you I’m not a random computer program. Have you seen the South Pole? Did you watch your sperm unite with your wife’s egg to form your children? Can you see beyond the farthest star?
Not seeing you and believing that there is a ‘you’ out there somewhere isn’t the same as having faith there are invisible beings. Nor does one need faith to know there is a North Pole (everyone KNOWS that Santa lives there!).
The most distant galaxies!
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Atheism is just as much a belief system as anything else, Mike. It’s a choice to believe or not believe. When you’re given two opposing circumstances, and you favor one, you have made a choice. So can we quit with the I don’t “choose” or I don’t have a “belief system”?
You cannot see beyond the farthest star, no one can. So they cannot prove it exists, but “scientists” know something is “there”. You can’t see the wind. You don’t know where it comes from–not talking about hurricanes or tornadoes–just plain old wind. You cannot prove God does not exist just as you say we cannot prove He does. Jesus Christ is an historically verifiable man who performed miraculous acts. He was crucified and was seen alive again. We know He is who He says He is. Who knows who you assume He “was”.
Mike, you’re free to think, act, believe in what you can touch, see, taste, hear, and feel. You’re free to live and die “atheist”. You’re free to mock, slander, condescend to me, to us Christians, and you’re free to think we’re delusional idiots.
I know the Lord. I’ve met Him and heard His voice. Call me crazy if you “choose”. For the most part, you weren’t offensive. Thank you for that. I’m outta here.
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Hi, Mike
Did I imply somewhere that you haven’t read the Bible? Actually, I think you’ve shown several times that you know parts of the word pretty well.
But to answer your question about believers seeing loved ones in Heaven, I guess I should clarify that believers will see loved ones who are also believers in Heaven.
Here are a couple of verses that affirm this either explicitly or implicitly:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.”
When David’s infant son died as a result of David’s sin with Bathsheba, after his time of grief David declared, “But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Samuel 12:23). David assumed that he would be able to recognize his son in heaven, despite the fact that he died as a baby.
“And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[a] bear the likeness of the man from heaven. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:49,53)
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people (Genesis 25:8).
Jesus said: “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 8:11).
“For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? For ye are our glory and joy.”(1 Thessalonians 2:19-20)
Hope this helps.
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Wayne~
Those are good verses, although I don’t think any of them say that you will see your friends and family in heaven.
But I don’t want to argue Bible really. Christians believe all kinds of different things, and the Bible “says” whatever the reader says it says. I’ve not problem with that. “Eternal life” is an oxymoron to me. Everlasting life? No way.
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Portland Mike, this is an example of what Nicole has been saying about atheists choosing to believe. Christians have the Bible as the authority and the Holy Spirit who is the guide to truth. Do we get it right all the time? Unfortunately, no, we don’t. But there are some things that Christians who are truly believers agree with. One is eternal—or everlasting,if you prefer—life.
You reject the idea out of hand. On what basis? How do you know you don’t have a soul that will survive your body?
The Bible says our inner man can be renewed even while the outer is decaying—a wonderful truth that gives aging a new dimension, by the way. But what would be the point of a renewed inner man if it dies with the body?
So here’s what Christians have—the authoritative word of God, the witnessed resurrection of Jesus (who walked on earth for 40 days and had numerous recorder interactions with his followers), the faith of thousands of believers worldwide who hold to the same truth, the Holy Spirit who confirms this truth in a variety of ways. Our belief is not groundless, but most of it is inaccessible to non-Christians. The Bible, however, isn’t inaccessible to anyone. It’s why we keep pointing to it.
Becky
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